Fear and Loathing: Geeks and Social Justice Warriors (Pt. 2) by Jacob Lloyd

(This is the second part of Jacob Lloyd’s series on geeks and social justice warriors. You can find the first here.

So … social justice warriors.

I’m not going to get into an argument about what a social justice warrior actually is, because the very concept is a slippery one – and, in any case, it’s better to see them as social justice bullies.  What I will say is that geeks are triggered by social justice bullies.

The core problem with SJWs is not that they are evil.  They have good intentions.  But they see people as groups, rather than individuals.  There is no attempt to draw a line between two different people, not when they’re in the same group.  SJWs see Sheldon Cooper and Warren Mears as being identical, even though they’re very different people.  People who happen to be in the favored groups get better treatment than the unfavored.  Worse, they are unable or unwilling to understand how their words scan to everyone outside their bubble.  A reasonable argument (to them) may not seem quite so reasonable to everyone else.

SJW tactics are very well known to geeks – they faced them back in high school!  Someone steps out of line – someone unpopular, someone with few true friends – and promptly gets blasted by the SJWs.  (The internet makes this worse, as it is now possible to pour scorn on JK Rowling, George RR Martin and others who would be too popular to bully in high school.)  The SJWs use ‘call-outs’ as weapons; instead of addressing matters privately, they humiliate their victims publicly.  And anyone who apologizes only makes it worse for themselves.

From the geek point of view, the mainstreaming of fandom has brought with it an influx of people who want to drive out the ‘real’ geeks.  The clubhouse has been invaded!  The jocks and cheerleaders and normal people are taking over and kicking us out!  I’ve heard people claiming that geeks are now cool – that they rule the world – but that is absurd.  Geek stuff might have become cool, but the geeks themselves are still on the margins.  “Are you sure this is the Sci-Fi Convention?”  Homer Simpson asks; “It’s full of nerds!”

And yes, this is a tragedy.  If you’re the kind of person who thinks that Westerners wearing Japanese clothes is Not Cool and blast it as ‘cultural appropriation’, why don’t you have a problem with newcomers embracing geek culture without embracing the geeks?  And if you’re the sort of geek who is painfully woke to the hypocrisies of the modern world, you might wonder why no one ever defends your right to maintain your culture.  Remember what I said about geeks being at the bottom?  They’re still at the bottom.

The thing is, it’s easy to have an idealized image of people you have never met and societies you have never experienced.  But everyone who went through a high school knows geeks.  They’re the weird creepy kids at the bottom and, more importantly, they’re harmless.  Angry nerds?  Who cares about angry nerds?  They’re not going to be able to do anything to us.

Geeks are angry not just because their clubhouse has been invaded, but the newcomers have stolen the right to write the rules.  Geeks are being told what they should be – and woe betide any geek who doesn’t conform.  The SJWs wield popularity and power against anyone who disagrees with them – in short, they’re grown-up high school bullies, no better than the jerk who stole my trousers and pants one afternoon and forced me to run upstairs wearing nothing below the waist.  No one wants to spend their entire time in fandom watching their words so carefully they can’t think about anything else.  Of course SJWs are regarded with fear and loathing.

What makes this worse is that the SJWs sometimes have a point, which is either convincing to at least some of the geeks or, more importantly, the outside world.  John Scalzi, for example, wrote a famous post attacking the concept of ‘fake geek girls.’  Scalzi was quite right to point out that there are no grounds for rejecting suspected ‘fake geek girls’ because there is no way to be sure they’re fake – a point that resonated with non-geeks – but, at the same time, he missed two important points.  The influx of newcomers has made life harder for geeks (for example, by driving up convention prices or by attacking fan fiction and fan productions) and, more importantly, by minimizing their experiences.  If you clung to your geek-hood through a decade in high school, experiencing massive social exclusion until you stumbled into fandom, it’s natural to resent someone who just walks in and gets feted as a geek.

(Scalzi’s post also drew disapproval from a number of geeks, including the one who brought it to my attention, for spending five paragraphs establishing himself as higher up the geek hierarchy than the unfortunate Mr. Peacock and then another fourteen paragraphs delivering a no-holds-barred beatdown on the original post before conceding that there is no such thing as a ‘speaker for the geeks.’  A great deal of Scalzi’s point – and it is a valid point – was lost because, to some extent, his post scanned as a claim to a title he didn’t have and an attack on everyone who didn’t agree with him.)

The tendency of SJWs to police geeks – or at least to try to police geeks – rubs a great many geeks the wrong way.  Being socially awkward and/or somewhere on the autistic spectrum, it is often hard for them to understand speech codes or convention codes of conduct.  (Social awkwardness is not an excuse for real bad behavior, but the socially awkward are often punished out of all proportion to their crime.)  The fact that the rules keep changing, seemingly at random, or that they are unevenly enforced (something that geeks are all too familiar with) only makes it worse.  Fandom, once socially inclusive, is steadily becoming exclusive of those who cannot handle the ever-shifting sands of publicly-acceptable behavior.  Worst of all is the belief that a person can be retroactively punished for something they said before it became unacceptable.  Retroactive punishment is a recipe for tyranny regardless of the context.  And it is unevenly enforced against the geeks, who are (or feel) powerless to resist!  They are (or certainly feel themselves to be) a marginalized group.

Question: How do you define ‘Hate Speech?’

Answer: The SJWs will tell you, after you commit it.

Geeks resent – and do their best to resist – hate speech codes because they fear they will be used against them – and their early life supports this.  Why should a geek trust a cool kid (however defined) to detail acceptable and unacceptable conduct?  Would you put a gun in the hand of someone you thought might point it at you and pull the trigger?  And while this does ensure that fandom has to put up with people who really should be excluded, it also makes it harder for fandom to exclude someone whose sole crime is being socially awkward.

The Sad Puppies affair, in some ways, was seen as proof that fandom had been infiltrated by bullies.  The Sad Puppies were branded a bunch of white men and accused of racism and sexism, although Larry Correia is Hispanic and Kate Paulk is female.  Instead of trying to disprove the Puppy case, the Puppy-Kickers tried to delegitimize the Sad Puppies.  Disagreement is one thing; bullying, slandering, boycotting, de-platforming and social exclusion are something else altogether.

This was not, of course, the only incident.  Elizabeth Moon – who is seen as a heroine by many geeks – was disinvited from a convention after daring to express an opinion that SJWs found unacceptable.  Maybe it was.  But bullying is also unacceptable and the SJWs were bullies.  Others have been attacked for being ‘problematic’ – even Wil Wheaton was savaged for daring to use the term ‘Spirit Animal.’  And, as I suspect Wheaton learned, apologizing only made it worse.  Kudos to Wheaton for eventually snapping back at his tormentors.  SJ online has a bad reputation because, as this post notes, it has not only thoroughly earned its reputation, it is also counterproductive.

It’s easy, when you’re on the outside of a culture, to have no more than a superficial understanding of it.  It’s also easy to fall into stereotypical beliefs about its inhabitants, particularly when some of them do behave badly.  But it is also easy to deliver massive offense – or make yourself hatred – through prescribing remedies that are either blatantly hypocritical or openly harmful, based on a simple misunderstanding.  Geeks fear and loathe social justice warriors because SJWs remind them of their experiences in high school.  The cool kids are coming to take our clubhouse and push us out …

… And there is nowhere else to go.

Calvin (to Moe): Why don’t you pick on someone your own size?

Moe: They’d hit back.

Calvin: I guess that has a certain unethical logic to it.

Geeks see SJWs as bullies, picking on them because they’re defenseless.  Think about it – if fandom is so unspeakably awful, why would anyone who isn’t a hardcore fan want to join?  It’s easy to believe that the true purpose is to gain power, then turn into a tyrant and start picking on everyone who isn’t politically correct.  Why should geeks give SJWs the benefit of the doubt when their life histories tell them that their previous tormentors were nasty.  And fighting back isn’t easy – as most socially awkward people know all too well – when there is enough truth in the tyrant’s argument to make it maddeningly difficult to disprove.

Indeed, geeks (as I can personally testify) often find themselves victimized by people who are debating in bad faith.  These people are not interested in exhaustively debating every last item of a given issue, but in finding something – anything – they can use against the geek.  The geek rarely realizes, in time, that his opponent is playing to the gallery, waiting for the geek to say something that can be taken out of context and used against him.  The geek thinks in terms of objective right and wrong; the SJW thinks of subjective right and wrong.  This makes it easy for them to claim that they are ‘offended’ and then demand punishment.  They are incapable of understanding that, in civilized society, the accusation is not proof.  You cannot simply point the finger and demand that everyone accepts your view of the matter.  You must put together a case that will satisfy everyone – and if you can’t defend your own position, perhaps your position is not – and never was – defensible.  It is your job to educate me if you wish me to accept your argument.  Convince me you’re right!

And they are rarely capable of understanding someone’s motives, however misguided.  It is a great deal easier to blast geeks for being ‘racist,’ or ‘sexist’ or merely ‘problematic’ than to understand their point of view.

The sad irony of the whole affair is this.  Inclusivity is not a bad thing.  And yet, like so much else, the level of toxicity lies in the dose.  There is nothing wrong with trying to make a convention accessible to, for example, people with physical disabilities.  What sort of monster would refuse to install wheelchair ramps if it were physically possible?  But, at the same time, how much are we losing by widening fandom?  If someone doesn’t want to join in the first place, why should we change in hopes of inviting them?  And how many of the ‘inclusive’ changes lead to geeks and other socially awkward souls being excluded?

Look at it this way.  I don’t like sports.  I have never willingly attended a NFL game in my life.  I don’t think I’d go to a game unless someone paid me a small fortune.  But why should the match organizers make changes in hopes of luring me?  The changes I would demand would spoil it for the football fans who do enjoy it.  And by what right should I – or others – demand that changes be made?

It’s not about science-fiction.  It isn’t about justice.  It’s about power.  It’s about constantly finding new reasons to be offended, which can then be leveraged into power.  It’s about people who have forgotten that they have to justify their actions to people outside their bubbles.  And it’s about people who are more interested in making short-term changes without considering the long-term good of fandom as a whole.  Or, for that matter, what might happen if they are perceived as nothing more than schoolyard bullies.

The baleful effects of SJWs on fandom have been tragic.  I know people who – particularly after the latest kerfuffle – have sworn never to attend another convention again.  The fun has gone.  Other writers have hired so-called sensitivity readers, only to discover that it isn’t enough to save their works – American Heart, for example – from being declared problematic.  And still others have fallen into ‘throw the baby out with the bathwater mode,’ choosing to believe that the SJWs can never have a point.  Like so many other battlegrounds of the culture wars, both sides have come to believe that making a concession will lead rapidly to many, many more.

If everything is problematic, then nothing is problematic.  And why should geeks make concessions when there is always something else to cause offense?

I don’t like some of what I’m hearing on both sides of the divide.  There is no longer any assumption of good faith, no longer any social trust.  Fandom is being torn apart, with famous names charged with being ‘problematic’ and other controversial names working hard to burn down the entire edifice.  We have started to lose something very important to us – our community – at precisely the time geek stuff has become more popular than ever before.  And I regret it more than I can say.

I’d like to close this essay with a simple observation.  Social Justice Warriors want change.  And yes, sometimes the change is necessary.  There is injustice in this world.  But they are very poor at making the case for change in a manner that everyone can accept … and very good at alienating everyone who doesn’t agree with them 100% (and defining words to smear their opponents).  They need to adapt, not come across as schoolyard bullies picking on people who have already been socially marginalized enough in life.

And they need to learn some basic empathy for those who feel themselves at the bottom.

151 thoughts on “Fear and Loathing: Geeks and Social Justice Warriors (Pt. 2) by Jacob Lloyd

  1. I don’t think using Wheaton (an SJWer who goes after other people all the time) is a good example to invoke. Otherwise, though, the article is thoughtful and well written.

    1. Aye. I recall his going on about “isn’t it great that at cons there is no ‘them’ it’s all us!” and then, “except for the furries.” So.. it’s all ‘us’… except for ‘them’. Wil Wheaton: What a dick!

      1. “Lt Worf, use Ensign Crusher as a bore brush for the photon torpedo tubes. Make it so.”

      2. Unless he was joking. Furries are kind of the French of fandom

        (He can still be a dick, of course. But not necessarily just at that moment. Embrace the healing power of “and”.)

        Which reminds me: speaking of obscenities and female privilege, have you noticed that men can be casually called a penis, but calling a woman a vagina is disallowed*?

        This is an excellent series of articles. I do wonder, however, about what the idea that there is nothing intrinsically dangerous about social justice itself.

        But they see people as groups, rather than individuals. There is no attempt to draw a line between two different people, not when they’re in the same group.

        It’s not merely that they see people as groups. I can actually live with that.

        What torques my shorts is that some groups get favors and protection from harm, while other groups get abuse and told to sit at the back of the bus.

        I don’t like aristos. I despise slavery.

        Applying this to job lots of people, instead of individuals doesn’t change that.


        (*Except maybe in Australia. It took me a while to realize that the YouTuber I was watching didn’t say anything more salty than dickhead or piss-poor, etc. Too funny, but dangerous to watch very often

          1. Found the missing two in the spam folder. As you already got the comment out, I deleted ’em. 🙂

        1. It’s also OK to call a female a vagina if she’s been disqualified from being “really” female– that is, she isn’t liberal enough.

          I’ve had more “male feminists” call me a c*** than I’ve had non-political guys be just rude.

          1. I’ve noticed that. It’s why the alliance between the SJWs and Islam isn’t as weird as it ought to be. They have the same enemy, and the same desire to find socially-acceptable targets to hate, ostracize, and harm.

            1. That’s because, just like “Nice Guys”, Male Feminists are playing the game in expectation of a reward. They’re already disappointed because they’re not getting one, but explicitly telling them that their game isn’t going to get them laid engages their rage circuits, because dammit! they DESERVE access to pussy for doing all this shit!

                1. That requires that the target be recognized as close enough to the possible put-out-er to trigger the “they might be a threat to me” response.

  2. The SJWs aren’t interested in fandom. They want to bully people. They want to do to SF what they’ve done to other fields As Iowahawk has said: kill it, skin it, gut it, wear it as a skin suit and demand respect.

  3. The SJW might sometimes have a point that isn’t on their head, but they illustrate Chesterton’s line about being right about what’s wrong but wrong about what’s right.

    Mostly because they can’t accept the guildeline of “don’t be a dick.”
    So they have to declare you can’t say there are fake geeks– but they also declare they get to decide who isn’t a geek. Bullying is bad– but they get to say what is bullying; oddly, “bullying” seems to largely consist of folks like me bruising the knuckles of those punching us.

    Hell, they can’t deal with freaking enthusiasm. How many times have they gotten all huffy about someone geeking out about something to someone who they deem as having more cred?
    Here’s a tip: if you are a lady who worked on the original run of Deadpool, and you’re in line for the movie, and some guy starts gushing about how awesome it is, that’s your cue to smile and say “Hey, I’m (so and so), you might not recognize my name, but I was the one who did (something key) and I worked on the original run for (time).” Then you stand back a little so the guy doesn’t vibrate through the ceiling from joy.
    You don’t say nothing and then whine because he didn’t sense that you have a cool background. If you had the faintest hint of awareness, you’d notice that the geeks in the line are doing that to anybody who makes eye contact.

    The “mainstreaming” of geek stuff has been pretty cool– it can give a way to recognize other fans, even if it’s just in the “I’m not alone” sense. I was driving my husband’s car the other day, and in my rear-view I saw the couple behind me totally flipping out and pointing at the side of my window. A bit of observation and I could tell it was a joyful excitement…at which point I remembered the only decoration on that car is for an anime show.
    This couple, who would’ve been totally invisible in any kind of “adults with teenage kids or a kid in college” type setting, were geeky enough to be totally delighted at a little anime joke.

    If someone is one of yours, defend them. That’s what’s right. It’s possible to lose being one of yours– Wheaton did, long ago, so I’ll only defend him as a side effect of defending the truth. But you protect those who are your own, and try to make sure they’re right. You don’t bully them, you don’t publicly embarrass them; don’t be a dick. Heck, we’re two centuries into having rather good instructions on how to correct people– go in private, only go public as a last resort– and proof it works better than the public shaming option. But public shaming gives them power.

    1. The “mainstreaming” of geek stuff has been pretty cool– it can give a way to recognize other fans, even if it’s just in the “I’m not alone” sense.

      Yeah – I parked behind a pickup last night with a license, “TRI4RC”. I didn’t get a chance to ask if he was a Legend of Zelda fan, though.

      1. I remember seeing a few years ago a company called “TriForce Landscaping” with the triforce emblem on the side of it. Wonder if they are still around.

    2. On the “fake geek girl” thing — I would be more impressed if there were a trifle more evidence. . . .

      1. Evidence of “fake geek girls”? Watch a lot of “geek gamer girls” videos and you’ll see plenty. Many (most?) are cute girls playing video games poorly while showing a good deal of skin and asking for Paypal support/handing out their Amazon wish list.

        My take away was these were 6/7s who realized:

        1. Male geeks have money
        2. Male geeks crave female attention

        And realized they could do to male geeks what cheerleaders did to jocks: be some kind of arm candy for gifts.

        Me, cynical? No, why do you ask?

        1. and actual gamer geek girls, many of whom can be termed ‘cute’, call those ‘boob streamers’

          1. Oh. Like the one’s they’d always have for the comic strips of Sweet Innocent Suzy Geek being maligned because she’s a girl.


            About as common as genuine geek girls getting offended that guys geeked out at them, not realizing they’re geeks, too….rather than going ‘Wait, you like them too?’ and geeking right back.

      2. I ran into a few.

        Basic mean-girl junk.

        Heavy dose of hipster.

        Standard “find what they love so you can destroy it” technique.

    3. It only works better to quietly approach someone and discuss the issues you have with something they’re doing, if what you want is the ability to interact with this individual without having to deal with the issue.

      If you just want the unworthy satisfaction of beating someone up who can’t fight back, preening your social cred, gaining status by accusing someone of an ethical violation, or anything not directly related to your relationship and/or the actual behavior, however, it’s prime

  4. Overall an excellent pair of essays, Jacob. Thanks.

    I think the group “justice” vs. individual “justice” take is especially important. Real zealots for Great Causes never, ever look at what happens to individuals, only groups (“previously underserved communities” or “the People” or “the LGBTQ2SA[whatever] community”). Geeks, at least those I’ve been around, are intensely personal and small group – “my tribe.” To an extent that leads to talking past each other. To an extent it makes it easier for those with Great Causes to get sympathy from outside.

    I’m closer to nerd than geek, most days. But I certainly am not happy to see whats going on in SF/F and the Con scene. I remember what it was like in Jr. High and HS to have my few safe havens invaded by the well meaning and otherwise.

    1. Safe havens. Just recently, I’ve had my space invaded without invitation for reasons that I agree were absolutely necessary. That doesn’t mean it wasn’t stressful, that it was cost free, or that it didn’t hurt a little my ability to recover.

  5. Re: good faith, social trust

    These things exist more in societies where such behavior is highly functional. They exist less in societies where such behavior is highly dysfunctional.

    Various things can be used to trace social history the way molecular biology can be used to trace biological history. The origins of social justice are in fact pretty unmistakeable. The society the originators helped build had unmistakeable qualities.

    The ability to build and maintain a community within a society likely is somewhat influenced by society’s traits. I’m not convinced that community of that scale has been really possible for much of my adult lifetime. This may simply be the changes in societal makeup becoming obvious.

    I think mere adaptation would not suffice for social justice. I suspect that for social justice to coexist without hostility in a society that includes anything outside social justice, social justice would have to change to no longer be social justice.

  6. This is such a good post. My God man, you have hit it.

    I’m sure all will remember the Fantastic Four “reboot” when the studio decided it needed to cast a black guy, and made Johnny Storm black. There was an outcry from FF fans, and an immediate FLAME WAR from SJW talking heads screaming “Nerd Racism!!!”

    That was the tipping place, for me. Comics had sucked since about 1993, and I was really liking the new Marvel movies. I had high hopes for a new FF flick, and I knew based on the replacement of Johnny Storm with a black actor, the movie was going to suck. For sure. No question. Because when you start screwing with the DNA of the story like that, it breaks everything.

    Being a huge comic nerd since the 1960s, I’ve read huge volumes of FF stories. I know you can’t drop a black dude into the FF and make it work. Idris Elba can be Heimdal, but he can’t be Johnny Storm. No way. It breaks the story. It doesn’t work.

    But now, in the new SJW reality, saying that makes me a -racist-, see? I’m not -allowed- to object. I’m supposed to applaud the brave decision, and say it will make the story even better. I mean, plenty of people out there actively expect me to say that, and they are ready with a big ol’ bat if I don’t.

    Well, you can imagine my reaction: http://phantomsoapbox.blogspot.ca/2013/05/five-reasons-i-should-punch-jf-sargent.html The title is: Five Reasons I should Punch J.F. Sergeant In The Face.

    Down at the bottom I prophesied that FF would suck, and of course it did. It was awful. The casting of Johnny Storm, while disastrous, was not the worst thing about the movie. What they did to Doctor Doom was -so- much worse. No respect for the story. No respect for Jack Kirby, one of the most miraculous artists of the modern age.

    I also prophesied that Wonder Woman would suck, based on early pictures of the star and the costume. Thankfully I was wrong. They got rid of the bondage leather outfit and fired the fruitcake director. WW was a great movie. Because why? Because the new director had some respect for the comic book. She didn’t break the story with a bunch of stupid changes. She just ran with it, and it turned out great.

    SJWs of course trashed the WW movie all over the place. It wasn’t Woke, you see.

    The problem revealed here is that there’s a fundamental difference between the comic/SFF/art nerds, and the SJWs. A comic nerd -cares- about the Fantastic Four. It is important to him. He wants to follow the story, and can’t wait until Wednesday for the new issue to come out. He’s excited by the comic. Its an adventure. The characters are faithful friends, they never let him down.

    An SJW does not care, at all, about the Fantastic Four. They want to use the Fantastic Four as a weapon to achieve something they care about. Racial justice, in this case. Replace a main character with a person of a different race, different gender, and show those nerds how fucking RAAAACIST! they really are! Hell yeah! Make Thor a woman! That’ll show those nerds! That’ll get us the election!

    They don’t care about Johnny Storm, or Thor. The characters are cheap, disposable tools. Used and then discarded when they get dull. Like a box cutter. Blade gets dull, snap it off and keep working.

    SJWs are a lot better at the group dynamics thing. They never let up. They move in to a company or a club, displace the nerds and dorks who stupidly love the thing that they’re doing, then get busy and churn out some SJW propaganda. (Yes I know, Iowahawk.)

    The company will go under, and the club will disintegrate, but THEY DON’T CARE ABOUT THAT. That isn’t important. Take it, use it, move on to the next one when it dies.

    Let’s list, shall we? Movies, popular music and radio, television, universities, comics, science fiction books, SF/F fandom, and lately computer companies and internet. Google lawsuit, right? Nerds vs. SJWs in real life.

    What’s left for the nerds to love? That’s a pretty complete listing of my hobbies. All that’s really left is woodworking, and I’ve seen signs that they are trying to take that over too. One would think they wouldn’t bother with old men making sawdust in the garage, but no. They are. SJW writers are trying to squeeze out wood nerds.

    So, what to do? I’m a cornered nerd. I’ve walked away from almost everything I used to love. Star Wars, Star Trek, comic books, science fiction and fantasy, and computers. The fuckers are coming for my goddamn table saw. There’s no place left to retreat.

    In the post, Jacob said: “But everyone who went through a high school knows geeks. They’re the weird creepy kids at the bottom and, more importantly, they’re harmless. Angry nerds? Who cares about angry nerds? They’re not going to be able to do anything to us.”

    Which is true, until you corner one. How many jocks have gotten the surprise of their life when the weird creepy kid goes berserk? Nerds have a tendency to do that. They go bone white, they get this crazy look on their face, and then they -stop-feeling-pain-. That’s a thing that happens.

    The other thing that happens, is nerds know -everything-. Say what you want about Edward Snowden and Chelsea Manning, those two nerds brought down an awful lot of Cool Kids just by knowing stuff. An angry nerd in the IT department is an atom bomb looking for a place to go off.

    I’m a nerd, for real. The Cool Kids took away my comics, my movies, and they’re taking away my books. But like most people here, after a lifetime of reading, I know -everything. So I’m writing my own damn books. Maybe its not Heinlein, but neither is the torture-pr0nz crap TOR is calling SF these days.

    That’s really where we are now, I think. You’re a fan of something? It is pretty much up to you to make more of it yourself, if you want to keep the political bullshit out of it. That’s what I’m doing. Cornered nerd says come and get me, Cool Kids.

    1. I can remember when there was an out cry against people who didn’t agree with the casting of Tim Russ as Tuvok on Annoy, I am Voyager. *sigh*

        1. There was resistance to casting a black man in the role of a character from a race of people who had, up until then, been shown as having yellowish skin.

          As to how he did, I cannot say. I could not get past Capt. Wuss enough to watch the show. ((give me Susan Ivanova any day over Janeway.))

          1. Ivanova. – when you want to make damn sure you’ve got a tomorrow to have a BOOM in.

            Seriously, though, if we assume some kind of melanin equivalent and geographically variable amounts of sunlight incident on Vulcan’s surface (given Vulcan’s sun, that’s not remotely out of line), you almost have to have differing skin tones among the species.

            1. I can only tell you that those who protested were cast as being racist.

              Ivanava had a pair – metaphorically speaking of course.

            2. Read Diane Duane’s “Spock’s World”. If Paramount had had a braincell between them, they’d have picked up her Rihannsu (Romulan) books instead of the dreck they did……

              1. Wasn’t just Paramount, it was also Gene Rodenberry. Look at John Ford’s Klingons and culture versus what we got in TNG. JF’s book created a lot of decent culture and reasons for everything connecting the movie Klingons (imperial race) with TOS Klingons (hybrid species). I mean, they should have grabbed that and ran with it. Would have made a lot better sense then what we ended up with.

                1. The Final Reflection is proof you can do some incredibly creative things with someone else’s world and have it all work.

          2. There was resistance to casting a black man in the role of a character from a race of people who had, up until then, been shown as having yellowish skin.

            Green blooded, yellow skinned people who were already established to all be from the desert, so they obviously didn’t have the same issues that justify human skin differences.

            I couldn’t watch the show, either; I know the actor has a reputation of being really nice at cons, though. (not like you can blame him for the writers doing a stupid plot trick)

            1. Yep. The only one I bought was the wossname, the Tasha Yar Romulan. Because albino hybrid.

              I’d’ve bought any half-Vulcan, half-something-else cross, because Vulcans are basically the Haut in my mind. At least, that’ s how I assume they reproduce with other species.

              And this entire thread is why geeky nerds are geeky nerds.

              Because the number of people who don’t experience MEGO over a conversation about the biological and storytelling validity of a dark-skinned Vulcan has to be pretty limited.

              Having to look over your should to be sure the Stasi aren’t listening because raaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaacissm heresy is not conducive to this kind of fun.

              1. I effing LOVE Sela – she’s my favorite frenemy in Star Trek Online. Denise Crosby had LOADS of fun voicing the role, it’s clear. I hope she shows up again, but she hasn’t been around since the Iconian War.

                (There is a storyline mission involving the Enterprise-C as well too.)

              2. Or even a quarter something else! Or at some point someone says “Wait, vulcan?” and someone else says “Well, mostly”– and they go from there.

                Two seconds, maybe five. But nooooo….

                Oooh! Oooh! Give HIM a Klingon grandparent!

          3. I never had an issue with Janeway, but you’re right: Ivanova is much better.

            And what was up with Voyager’s holodecks? Alpha testing a new version?

            1. “Who am I? I am Susan Ivanova, Commander. Daughter of Andre and Sophie Ivanov. I am the right hand of vengeance and the boot that is going to kick your sorry ass all the way back to Earth, sweetheart! I am death incarnate, and the last living thing that you will ever see.

              *God* sent me.”

              “Engineering, this is General Lefcourt. In case you didn’t notice, the enemy just pulled our shorts up over our head and tied them into a knot.”

      1. I didn’t mind Russ, but I found Voyager very flat. The only character I cared about was the holographic doctor, and only because he brought some comedy to the show. I didn’t make it more than halfway through S1. While I don’t mind looking at stills of Jeri Ryan as 7 of 9 (or whatever her character was), she didn’t appear interesting enough to go back and watch those episodes. I gave up on ST series after that. I’ll go back and watch any episode of DS9, but that’s because they had interesting story lines and the rest of the series just seemed like drek.

        1. Heh. I gave up on ST mid-way through DS-9, when it started to become more like DS-90215.

          Agree about the Doctor though, he at least was *cough* real.

          1. I started referring to DS9 as Deep S— 9, as they had to always have a disaster to deal with. Alright, so did all of them, really, but ‘DS’ just BEGS for that treatment.

            1. I stopped watching it really after the start of the Dominion War story arc. Found a lot of the stories insulting or derivative of other shows (Babylon 5 say with pictures of huge fleets of ships, seen similar style of scene on DS:9 a couple weeks later….). Eventually caught up with most of the missed episodes in re-runs but, yeah. Lost a lot of interest.

        2. The only Voyager episode that ever worked for me was the one with the Evil Holographic Fear Clown.

          The performer playing the clown was actually pretty great…and for once Janeway’s solution to the conflict (“What -is- the end game of a being who’s Fear Personified?”) was actually pretty cool.

    2. I was worried about Fury– but it turned out OK because they didn’t do “look, a black guy!”, Jackson was being Fury so hard that it was awe inspiring, and it even made sense in-story since the original Fury would’ve been about half a century too old.

      It’s like the difference between John Wayne and Alan Rickman; Wayne was always JOHN WAYNE AS _____, while Alan Rickman you sometimes have to hit IMDB to prove it was even him in two different movies.

      The racist SOBs demand “a black guy” like John Wayne fans, while comic book fans want someone playing the character who can at least fake that they love it as much as the fans do.

      1. I remember hearing that when the movie makers were looking to find an actor to play Kingpin in the Daredevil movie, they couldn’t think of a white actor that could play Kingpin RIGHT but believed (apparently correctly) that this one black actor would make a Great Kingpin.

        IE This was also a case of an actor who could “play the role” not “let’s make Kingpin black”.

      2. I beg to differ, the remark from Cap about there being no black colonels was an attempt to to that

          1. you could say that the writer and director who wrote the line was racisssss for not knowing.

            1. In fairness, I only recently found out that the Enemy Alien Control Program had hearings, and even well educated folks won’t know that Germans and Italians were included.
              (Just not as many, since there are larger multi-generation American populations of those groups.)

        1. I can’t tell if it was the result of an SJW or just typical Hollywood ignorance, but it was definitely flat-out wrong, or if they decided to delete historical black officers from the Marvel Cinematic Universe.

          The first black colonel, Charles Young, died when Cap would have been a toddler. Benjamin Oliver Davis Sr. had already served as commander of 369th Regiment of NY National Guard and then been promoted to brigadier general prior to the outbreak of WWII. Benjamin Oliver Davis Jr. was a colonel and commanding the 332d Fighter Group by January 1944.

      3. Foxfier said: “comic book fans want someone playing the character who can at least fake that they love it as much as the fans do.”

        YES. This is the thing. We love the story! We want to see a guy who wants to be Johnny Storm, the Human Torch! We want to see a guy who wants to be Victor Von Doom, fricking super villain!

        I don’t think that’s such a big request, is it?

    3. The comments on your post are hilarious.

      How dare you not accept the great favor the guy did you by occasionally reading what you actually wrote, rather than constantly lying about you?

      1. Can Victor Von Doom be black? He’s the king of an Easter European country called Latveria. He can’t really be black.

        I think you could get Schwarzenegger to do a pretty good Von Doom. Keep him in the armor, give him some grandiose lines, it could work.

        But for awesome, you need somebody who can do scary evil dictator. Von Doom is not Idi Amin. He’s Joseph Stalin with Albert Einstein’s brain.

        1. Pushkin was black, or at least as black as a lot of people. If he could be the great poet/short story writer of Russia, somebody else could make himself the benevolent dictator of Latveria.

          But you would have to _be_ Doom. And eat blini and borscht.

    4. She didn’t break the story with a bunch of stupid changes. She just ran with it, and it turned out great.

      Actually, she did better than that. She showed how to challenge/change long standing cannon in ways that make it better.

      The key idea that brings Diana to the rest of the world is an airplane crashing on a hidden island in the Mediterranean. That story is a sell in 1941 and would be impossible after the late 50s.

      It is much more salable in 1917 which also provides a provision to amp up a bit of pathos Wonder Woman comics have explored since at least the late 70s: the burden of immorality (in different ways, Earth Two WW gives up her immortality to marry Steve, Kingdom Come and others have attached her to Superman as the logical outcome, and so on).

      It isn’t you can’t change anything but do it for a reason. Making Johnny Storm black and breaking the critical link that puts him on the ship/at the dimensional experiment (Marvel’s Ultimate also shows how to change things for the better a lot of the time) does nothing but check a box. Making the spider that bites Peter have altered genes instead of radiation is neutral and mostly about being up to date. Moving Diana to WWI acknowledges a problem and opens up new story possibilities.

      But the later is work and those wanting virtue cookies by definition aren’t interested in work.

      1. “(Marvel’s Ultimate also shows how to change things for the better a lot of the time)”

        ….well, when they were actively -trying- to. Far too often in the Ultimate line, change was made just for shock value, especially if Millar or Loeb were writing.

        It was a mere formality when they finally killed the line off for good. Which is a pity, it had some good stuff.

        1. I’m not saying all the changes were good but the change agendas were rarely as trivial as female Thor (the absolute worst of the SJW driven changes at Marvel).

          I liked the origin changes for the most part and after the “everyone is a mutant in the end” 90s the idea that the majority of supers were somehow related to attempts to recreate the Super Soldier Serum that gave up Captain America was at least interesting.

        2. well, at the rate they are going they are going to kill them all off. Did you see what Jim Shooter said?

          1. Yeah. I’m hoping Cebulski takes some of it to heart and culls more of the leftovers from the Alonso era.

    5. “SJWs are a lot better at the group dynamics thing. They never let up. They move in to a company or a club, displace the nerds and dorks who stupidly love the thing that they’re doing, then get busy and churn out some SJW propaganda.”

      I think you can add the American Psychiatric Association, the Boy Scouts of America, oh God, and the United States military to the list of infiltrated and perverted organizations. The first two having their share of social misfits; and while most military members don’t meet the expectation of being a nerd or a geek; they damn sure aren’t mainstream people either.

      1. It’s a form of the Iron Law: The ones who are devoted to organizational goals lose to those devoted to organizational power

  7. I’m an SF/F fan, but I don’t know what fandom is. I don’t have a great desire to attend cons and such. I don’t read fan magazines. I don’t look askance at those who do; it’s simply not my idea of fun. But I do read and enjoy SF/F.

    The closest I’ve come to fandom was the Sad Puppies. Flat Cats & Friends in Spokane squelched that. Part of my job is dealing with the public, and sometimes you run into jerks, but that’s why they pay you. I don’t make a dime off Flat Cats & Friends, and there’s no reason to put up with them.

    1. I’m with you, Kevin. Prior to Sad Puppies I had nothing to do with Fandom, conventions, awards, all that. I’m a fan of reading science fiction, not hanging out and talking about it.

      But, the people who publish what I read have been exclusively paying attention to Fandom. They’ve been catering to the awards process. They’ve been listening to the Flat Cats, and ignoring me, the guy who buys the stuff. Which seems stupid, until you realize they are all SJWs together, and the health of the publishing companies means NOTHING to them. They simply do not care that no one is buying their ideologically pure bumf. The stores do not care that they are literally going out of business.

      So, engaging with Fandom seemed a good idea. I expected a harsh reception, and I was not disappointed. But realistically this was never going to be about making friends. It was always about ripping the covers off and showing the ugly truth underneath. Because you can’t change an SJW, you can only show the truth to everyone else and STARVE the SJW.

      That process continues with the latest bunfight and Jon del Arroz. That guy was -never- going to get a membership at SFWA. In getting kicked out he demonstrates that they talk a good game, but they won’t play by the rules. We all knew that before, but now a lot more people know it.

      Rule number 1, don’t corner the nerd.

    2. Going back to the Eighties, I’ve talked about making a button or a t-shirt that said, “I’m not a fan. I just read the stuff.”

      I’ve never been fan enough to do it. Who wears buttons? Or writes things on their t-shirts?

        1. My first book has a Valkyrie robot, that looks exactly like Tricia Helfer, wearing that red dress, and she’s got a silk scarf with a pin on it. The pin is a toaster made of clear crystals, with a circle of red crystals and a red line through it.

          I want that pin too. ~:D

      1. *waves hand in the air* I do!

        We’re geeky enough that our kids recognize my husband’s Joker shirt– and my Nice Coat has a couple of little pins on it, too.

        1. *grin* Son’s girlfriend apparently really really really wanted to get him a sexy figure of Harley Quinn for his birthday. Was not within the budget – so he got a little Pop! chibi Stan Lee instead.

          Had to explain to son later he has indeed seen Stan Lee on the movies – and it clicked when I said he was the old guy who shows up in all the movies, including the delivery guy who says “Tony Stank.”

  8. I am also an SF/F fan. I started reading Heinlein, Asimov, Andre Norton and others around 14 years old. Yet, I am an outlier of the outliers because I don’t do fandom. Never have. My problem with the SJW logic (and bully tactics) is that they want change… but then change isn’t always good. And who controls the change? Do we want the change in the hands of someone who uses bully tactics?

    1. Yeah, change… into what? The change they want is where I’m not allowed to complain about the FF movie. Or that the black lady author’s book is the best, because she’s black and a lady.

      SJWs see no problem with any of that. “Of course the black lady’s is the best, because Intersectionality, stupid nerd! What is wrong with you? Get back in your hole!”

      I’m not a skinny 15 year old anymore though. So, its problematic as they say.

      1. Yep. I’m not a skinny little girl anymore (actually a grandmother now) so I don’t feel the need to be a part of that team. (any team actually) 🙂

    2. I’ve been a fan of SF/F since I was a kid. I’ve been to two cons. Local one in Fargo and when Worldcon was in Winnipeg in the mid-90’s. Not my thing.

      SJW want to fundamentally change fandom, just as some politicians want to fundamentally change their country/state/district. But look at what that means. They want to change core elements of what makes up the Thing. That’s usually not a good way of saving the Thing. In SF/F that usually means that what they want to change is what made us all fans to begin with.

  9. The Sad/Rabid Puppies saga is where the same story looks completely different as seen by opposite sides.

    The view from the other side is like this: We’re the geeks, and you’re the bullies who showed up to try to ruin our convention. A bunch of people who don’t even attend our big geek convention exploited a flaw in our nomination rules and voted to nominate a bunch of stories they didn’t even read and which were so bad we were forced to give no awards at all. And then they laughed at us. Because we insisted on following our own rules, we had no way to just exclude those from the ballot, and because it takes two years to amend our constitution, we had to suffer for two years before we could fix the flaw in the rules. So why did we applaud the “No Award” results at Sasquan? Because we beat the bullies! They tried to stuff dog poo down our throats and we spit it back at them.

    Whether you believe this or not, you should understand that this is what the other side genuinely believes. They’re not lying when they say it. And you must admit that EPH is a system that only a geek could love. 🙂

    I think one could easily argue that up until the Rabid Puppies got involved, this really was a geek vs. geek conflict. Without the RPs, I think SP3 would have gotten just two or three of their nominees on the final ballot (speaking only of the printed fiction categories), and I’m pretty sure that was their actual goal. There would have been a small fuss, but most people (who really don’t follow things that closely) would have read and rated them on their merits.

    I think the moral of this story is that geeks should not side with bullies in order to win fights with other geeks. Whatever flavor of bullies they might be.

    1. OH YES! The Evil Rapid Puppies!

      Sorry Mister, the Hate was strong toward the Sad Puppies even before Rapid Puppies showed up.

      The Puppy-Kickers showed the hatred that I expect from Lefties and then tried to claim “We’ll Like You After You Start Kicking the Rapid Puppies”.

      The Puppy-Kickers started out kicking the Sad Puppies and then tried to “divide and conquer” when the Rapid Puppies showed up.

      Why should we ally with people who started Kicking Us?

    2. Were you paying attention to SP1 and SP2 (before Vox decided to get involved)? Amicable disagreement, it was not. I recall charges of racism and death threats directed towards the SP (and a bunch of debunked claims of it going the other way). And “voted to nominate a bunch of stories they didn’t even read” would be in direct contravention to the exhortations by both Larry and Sarah to nominate and vote for stuff that we liked, having read it.

      Given the obvious bloc voting in the SP3 year, the charge of voting slates vs what one likes reading would be more easily levelled at the other side.

    3. Greg,

      Some of us get pretty hot under the collar when it comes to what happened, especially during SP3 and SP4. We remember the other side claiming Brad’s marriage was a sham designed simply to hide the fact he was a bigot.

      A bunch of people who don’t even attend our big geek convention exploited a flaw in our nomination rules and voted to nominate a bunch of stories they didn’t even read and which were so bad we were forced to give no awards at all.

      See, here’s what I see as a fundamental flaw in the other side’s argument. The Hugos were never designed to be dependent on convention attendance. That was something that came purely from the desire of the Fans to control the award. Not every fan of sf/f can afford to attend cons, and especially not WorldCon. As for the allegation we nominated a bunch of things we hadn’t read and weren’t worthy of receiving an award, that comment is laughable in light of the number of those on the other side who publicly patted themselves on the back and proclaimed they would “no award” anything nominated by the Puppies of any ilk and wouldn’t even bother reading them.

      I can understand they felt threatened. But when you look at the greying of fandom, they should have opened their arms and recognized we all love the genre. At least, I know the Sad Puppies do. I would hope they do, but their actions have led me to wonder. There was a time when geeks of all sorts were welcome — or at least not told they weren’t worthy of being a fan. And that, Greg, is what we were told. We didn’t like the right kind of books. We didn’t go to the right conventions. We weren’t the right sex, color, or creed. So how dare we darken their door? In fact, we were told to go away and form our own awards — something they laughed about until the Dragon Awards came to be and look at how so many of them are now trying to take those over just so the evil Puppies won’t have them.

      If you don’t believe that the ostracism is still happening, look around. Just yesterday I came across a blog from one of the usual suspects saying it’s okay to “discriminate against assholes” and featured the logo for SP3. It’s hard to sit back and not feel like they not only want to slam the door in your face but deny your entire existence. Nor should it be difficult to understand why we not only refuse to surrender the genre to them without a fight. The fact we are making money, some of us a great deal of it, with our books that don’t meet their “standards” should tell them something. But they ignore it, just as they try to ignore us.


    4. The Sad/Rabid Puppies saga is where the same story looks completely different as seen by opposite sides.

      Coming from someone who reads a tweet saying that a guy who had threats made against him will be wearing a camera, and translates it as the guy declaring he was going to trick young authors into making fools of themselves, that doesn’t say much.

      It could be Jesus Christ Himself returning in glory and if the narrative demanded, you’d find some way it was totally backwards.

    5. Hey Greg,

      As somebody who reads a number of forums and who has attended more local and regional conventions than he can recall, let me tell you how it seemed to me. For nearly two decades, when I heard complaints expressed in person or online about either the Hugo selections or the running of WorldCon itself, I heard the same basic remarks from WorldCon supporters, be they online or the people manning WorldCon (or WorldCon bid) tables and room parties at other cons:

      Buy a membership (again, for those complaining about past experiences at WorldCon itself). Attend the business meeting if you want changes made to the convention rules. Volunteer to help run things if you want them run better. If you don’t like what you see in the Hugo selections, buy a supporting membership, to vote for the books for the upcoming convention and nominate for the next one.

      Then when a bunch of people actually started following that advice, the WorldCon clique freaked out and denounce those people who’d done so. So, were the WorldCon supporters lying and running a disinformation campaign for the past couple decades, or do they just not want the “wrong” people involved?

    6. The problem with painting the Puppies as bullies is that they aren’t the ones who hold power in the SF community. They don’t run the cons, or the publishers.

      1. Chris, be careful with that. It’s the same logic used to declare that (minority of choice) can’t be racist. Never mind that they just dragged someone out of their car shouting “kill whitey!”

    7. Greg, you of all people from recent experience should know the kind of inflexibly “Tolerant” folks who are running the WorldCon establishment side of the fandom. But you’ll notice that it’s us horrible puppies who will have reasoned, intellectual discussions with you even though we may disagree. We don’t disavow, disemvowel, or delete you, and a lot of us give you some respect for coming at your positions from a reasoned, intellectual direction. But you really need to let go of some of the dogma informing your opinions. The boilerplate insults of the Sad Puppies and their motives serve you poorly, especially when talking to the folks who were on the front lines.

      1. Greg is living proof that denile is not just a river in Egypt. He’s trying to surf the tsunami and retain some of his SJW Cred, even as other SJWs continue to criticize him and “call him out” for ever-more outre “crimes.” Which are all bullshit, I feel fairly safe in saying.

        The cool kids are kicking sand in his face, and he’s protecting that sand castle he spent a decade or so building.

        Its fucking disgusting what’s being done to a genuine fan of SF/F, a guy who reads ALL the stories because that’s what fans do. They read the stories.

        He’s having some cognitive dissonance right now, because people don’t usually work at their best when vandals are trying to wreck their stuff.

        Eventually Greg will see he is right now in the same position that Larry Correia was in when he decided to start Sad Puppies 1.

        I’ve decided to ignore Greg’s failings and focus on his virtues. He’s not a dick when he comments here, he doesn’t make shit up, and he doesn’t -lie- about other people to smear them.

        In our present degenerate environment, that’s pretty good. I’ll take it. Other people’s mileage may vary, and I’m good with that too.

        1. How Greg presents interpretations of facts reminds me very much of Vox Day. In hindsight, I consider them of similar reliability as sources of information.

          1. Sources of information, well, I was there, and I remember what people said to me and where. I don’t bother with Vox, he’s much too impressed with himself for my taste. Greg is pretty much militantly wrong about everything Puppy, and has been that way consistently since the start.

            I remember how it was, and this being the Internet, anybody can just go back and look, make up their own mind.

            It isn’t a problem for me that Greg is always wrong. Its his thing, kind of. He has his belief system, and he sticks to it. I can respect that. At least he’s polite. ~:D

        2. Actually, I’m just trying to run a site to help readers and fans find science fiction stories they like. Everything else is secondary to that. My top priority is flow. That is, I should be able to drop into a story and have the rest of the world just disappear while I’m inside it. Any story that doesn’t flow doesn’t get recommended, regardless of the message, the identity of the author, or any cool ideas in it. To actually get recommended, a story needs a lot more than flow, but stories that don’t flow are automatically excluded. (In my view, this is the “well-told” part of “a good tale, well-told.”)

          The recent attacks on Rocket Stack Rank came from a group of authors who are very unhappy that I have recommended against their stories in the past, largely because they don’t flow (frequently because they can’t resist shoving a message down the reader’s throat). They pored over the reviews I wrote looking for something they thought they could hang on us, and eventually they did.

          This was my fault because I wrote some things that didn’t really represent my own values. (Sometimes after reading a really bad story I don’t write the nicest reviews.) That doesn’t mean I have any illusions about their motives. They would have contacted me privately if they’d actually wanted to do anyone any good; they simply wanted to punish the people who said bad things about their stories. Sadly, I gave them the tool to do it with.

          We apologized to our readers for what we thought we actually did wrong, and we made a few changes to avoid doing that in the future. We didn’t change anything else, so I expect we’ll be attacked by the same group again before long. C’est la guerre.

    8. Greg Hullender said: “The view from the other side is like this: We’re the geeks, and you’re the bullies who showed up to try to ruin our convention.”

      Did you not get the memo, Greg? You’re on -this- side now. Welcome to UnderBus Land.

    9. Except we did read the works. And many of the SP noms are really, really well liked and sell by the truck load. Warbound was the highest rated book nominated for it’s year. Skin Game had the highest rating of any nominated book, barely beating out JK Rowling in popularity.

      And yes, we “exploited the flaw” that they had been telling us to do. Tell us to do some, then scream at us for actually doing it? I think there is a psychological term for that…

          1. I will admit to seeing red when I saw that Toni had been No Awarded. One can seriously dislike every book on the list (tastes differ and all that), but to No Award the **editors**, especially one like her who has probably done more to encourage new authors than anyone else I’ve seen???

  10. Aha! My local environment IS the culprit in my misunderstanding part 1.

    SJWs haven’t gained much traction in Montana’s Bitterroot Valley. They kids at school know where that locally grown Angus beef comes from. The girls discuss their hunting trips, and bring in venison stew to share with friends.

    The boys grew up tossing bales of hay up to a wagon to make a few bucks each harvest, and most of the younger set are too busy working to attend a demonstration.

    We’ve got unrequited Hippys living Off The Grid, but they don’t influence valley politics all that much (as in no one pays any attention to them but their own fellows)

    I’ve seen SJWs doing their usual volunteer for everything till they can run the show other places.

    That’s why we still call this The Last Best Place.

  11. The SJW with a legitimate gripe is like the blind squirrel who can’t smell who occasionally finds a nut. It’s possible, but highly improbable. Like caveat for investments: History is no guarantee of future performance, but it’s a pretty good indicator. When the SJW stands up and opens it’s mouth, you’re more likely to get verbal diarrhea than a coherent policy argument.

  12. “The core problem with SJWs is not that they are evil. They have good intentions.” Lenin once said that he was willing to exterminate 90% of the Russian People to ensure the Victory of the Revolution and the Arrival of the Radiant Future. Good intentions does not mean not evil,

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