Shooting the messenger

This is somewhat of an extension of a post I made at Brad Torgerson’s summons to a Facebook post by David Gerrold as to how evil and generally crass and nasty the Sad Puppies were… And completely misunderstanding the issues:

Unfortunately, when my name was mentioned in this thread I was upside down, in the dark, 10 meters underwater, in a narrow cave, where I had about 50% chance of not getting out if I had anything go wrong. (Too narrow to move a hand back, had the eight pound spiny lobster I was wrestling with pulled my regulator pipe, or had I bumped it out. I’m claustrophobic and my mask was half full of water. I’d rather be back there (where I don’t get Facebook messages), but anyway: Gentlefolk, you’re shooting the messenger. While that is more short-term comfortable, reality has to be dealt with eventually. The reality is this – According to PW the print sales for Sf/fantasy in the last three years have declined catastrophically (and according to the same source, e-books have plateaued). While there is an element of GIGO in the PW figures (they rely on Bookscan, which captures ~30% of my sales, and Bowker, which not everyone uses) the trend in Traditionally published sf/fantasy is clear, and the most conservative estimate would have sales about 30% down in the last 5 years. The actual figure is possibly a lot higher. Given economic conditions – fiction sales are normally counter-cyclical, like camping gear and seeds, and beer, we should be asking hard questions about what is happening in our genre. It’s probable that Brad Torgersson has a point: Traditional SF/Fantasy Publishing has lost much of its core audience, and failed to gain new readers. Some of that slack has been taken up by Indies doing e-books sans ISBN’s. Some of those are doing extremely well, and it would make good sense to see what they’re doing right. The answer seems to be – judging by books by people like Chris Nuttal and Marko Kloos, to write what their audiences wanted to read, not to assume they wanted a social justice lecture.

Talking of probabilities: that was what Brad mentioned me in connection with – As roughly 10-15% of any population fit on the ‘ends’ of the political spectrum, and the population (AKA readers) tend to be more or less a normal distribution on that curve. (It is rare, without extensive doctrinaire policing to find public support for all the items of one extreme’s tenets. This man will agree about abortion, but disagree on the death penalty, and so on. Usually doctrinaire policing is a sign of weakness and imminent collapse, IMO. It also seems to happen when the ‘victors’ are “fullest of wine and flagrant of error”. ) The Hugo awards – pre 1990 anyway — historically have been socio-politically representative, and (in context with their times) considerably more welcoming than other fields to writers of different skin color, sexual orientation and both sexes. Outspoken liberals, and outspoken conservatives and libertarians won or were nominees. Of course the bulk of authors were demographically representative of the possible readership, in that they were not outspoken supporters of any extreme of the political spectrum. To put this in a simple way think of the chances Hugo nomination going to Left or right ends as represented by a six sided dice throw. There is ~ 17% chance of any number – so if we call left 6 and right 1, we should get an equal chance every time we throw (nominate) of either left or right. About 2/3 of the time it will be neither. If that’s true, the competition is fair. If you somehow get five nominations in one category that are all 6 something is wrong. Any casino would regard the dice with suspicion. Try it yourself. Count the number of tries it takes to throw five 6’s in a row. Try doing to simulate multiple years for multiple categories. It is billions to 1 improbable with fair dice. If you did a fraction of that in a casino – they’d ban you for life. So: There is a real problem in the Hugos, and it probably isn’t the authors (unless they are lobbying) or the voters, but the various activist lobbies. That is the message from the Sad Puppies. And yes, if a 6 is thrown more than 17% of the time… the Sad Puppies prove their point and win. If their being there makes a 1 come up, they also win. And if a 6 wins yet again, it’s a Pyrrhic victory for the Left. Every time a 6 wins in future it will be regarded with, at best, suspicion. If you’re upset by this, perhaps you should consider how those represented by 1,2,3,4,5 have felt in the past.

Basically, for the foreseeable future, the SWJ lobby need to accept they’ll be treated as suspected cheats at any casino. If they have any brains at all, they will realize the next twenty years need to be devoted to scrupulous behavior (an end to the ‘Requires Hate’/Shanly Kane model they have embraced) and rebuilding credibility. But I see no signs of a sudden flowering of intelligence or even shame there.

I seriously doubt that common sense or mathematics will reach many. I am probably going to be misogynist/racist/homophobe/ etc. etc. Yet again (haven’t they worked out ‘Wolf’ too often gets ignored, and when it is real you’re going to be wolf-dinner because you were so dumb?). And we’ll probably have yet another eye-rolling drive-by of ‘Cat’… but as Brad has stuck his neck out, I felt honor-bound to stand up next to him. He’s a brave man, and a lot more tolerant of fools than I am. And as a target for 101st Chairbourne sneer possibly Gerrold could have missed the target by a wider margin, but he’d have to try damned hard.

And now onto something more personal: I see that I’m on the Sad Puppies and Rabid Puppies slate as one of the ‘Best Fan Writers’. Thank you Brad and Vox. I am amused and flattered, and the thought of KStandlee (the sacred defender of the honor of Hugo, DUSC* and bar, who has the rare distinction of being one two people banned from MGC for trolling behavior) having apoplexy at seeing the post that got him banned awarded a Hugo, is not without humor, but no. I feel it would be unfair, and not in keeping with the spirit in which this category was created. I’m a long-term traditionally published author with I estimate at least 400 000 sales, not a fan. Yes, I know Kameron Hurley won the Fan writer Award while being a well-established traditionally published novelist, but that is not me. It’s not what I consider right. Some good and honorable people wanted that category to encourage fans to write about the genre, not as a ‘side door’ for unworthy pros, like myself. I commend Cedar or Amanda.

*Disdainful of the Unwashed Simian Critic


  1. They keep pushing this BS in ‘real publishing’

    Their readership keeps going down

    Maybe they need to make an accountant an editor… you know, someone that knows how to put 2 and 2 together.

    1. Somehow I believe it would end up all sixes and sevens anyway. They can’t seem to help themselves.

    2. Draven one of the big complaints in author/publishing circles is ‘the bean counters are in control’ . My own feeling is that it actually needs both – someone who understands how push and marketing affects sales (and how this affects future sales). I think right now you’ve got accountant types at the top being completely snow-jobbed by editors because the accountants don’t know how the editors can manipulate the figures, and the accountants generate that snow job by having unrealistic expectations – like they want to know how many copies a book will sell before it comes out. The editor who guesses right is a ‘good boy’ – so they make sure that it is going to match the guess.

  2. Bravo, sir! As one who drew the ire of KStandlee a few years ago when I suggested Fred Pohl shouldn’t have won the Best Fan Writer Hugo, I salute your choice to step aside.

    1. Thank you. It seemed the right thing to do, so I did it. KStandlee seems to be something of a major liability to the Hugo Award’s public relations, I’m afraid. I like to think he means well. He just seems the worst possible choice for a job that takes tact, gentlemanly conduct, whether you are in disagreement or disapprove of those you are dealing with, and being patently non-partisan. Showing that means showing more tolerance to those you disagree with, not less, and avoiding expressing personal opinions in public. Maybe they could ask him to do something that didn’t involve interfacing with the public.

      1. Standlee is not directly involved in Hugo administration. He’s the perpetual head of the WSFS Business Meeting. As such, yes, by running around trash-talking he’s actively making himself a liability to those who DO run the Hugo voting (and to WC itself) and I suspect many wish that he (and anyone else officially associated with the current WorldCon) would STFU about political-feud WC issues.

        I think it’s important here to distinguish between the trash-talkers from the people (all volunteers, mind you) who actually handle the mechanics of the Hugo voting procedure. Their job is difficult enough before they get piled on by all sides, and even before SP debuted they got piled on with regularity. Larry Correia and others put them under intense scrutiny last year during SP2 and found they ran a very clean operation. They are neither the problem nor the issue at this point, despite the attempts of some to drag them into the mix.

  3. Heh, I fear I’ve hit another timesink, having elected to finally participate in the Book of Faces (Although I first set up the account, not knowing about how to do the Fan Account thing, under the name of Paul Mauser, the “real” name of Dr. Mauser, and not my own – and I can’t figure out how to change it at this point. Zuckerburg will be furious with me.). I posted a comment on the Gerrold thread. Actually, I’ve posted on a bunch of these now, although I’ve tried to come at it from a slightly different angle, mostly using the SJW’s points against them, rather than the usual arguments. I think I’m zinging them pretty hard.

    (Damn Facebook network is too big. Just by adding a few folks I’ve got a dozen other requests pending from people I’m not even sure I know, but who have a lot of folks in common. I hope nobody’s insulted if they have to wait a while until I sort this whole thing out. Frankly, Twitter is easier.)

    (And Cedar, you spend WAY too much time on social networking. You’re everywhere!)

    1. There is one upside to the Book of Faces: Your typing and reading speed will see some improvement if you try and keep up with things.

    2. I wouldn’t worry too much about folks getting offended– the requests will wait.

      Especially if you’re on it as “often” as I am… ie, once in a lilac moon.

    3. Depends on the day – and keep in mind a lot of what you see is automated, like my blog and instagram photos. I am usually nowhere near a computer when they make their scheduled appearances. 🙂

    4. Sorry, that was my fault. I added a friend request and recommended Sarah and Cedar. My advise is to generally ignore friend requests unless there are mutuals. I wanted to ask you about Mee.Nu as a blog. I went ahead and just started using wordpress.

      1. In this crowd, WordPress is just fine, especially the features that help you keep track of conversations and notifications (I might not have seen this comment otherwise). isn’t a bad platform either (Although some of the features like organizing folders for images are… arcane) but I originally signed up so that I could comment on Steven Den Beste’s blog, and although we’ve had a falling out, I found it a good place to post my anime reviews and such. (Livejournal is for personal matters and mostly friends-locked, WordPress will be about writing. There will be overlaps between them all).

  4. I tottered over to David’s Facebook to take a look, and couldn’t manage to scroll through all the posts full of left-wing hate-memes….He’s so hostile to any viewpoint other than his own, it’s painful. Blind to his own bigotry.

  5. Bravo for turning down the nomination for best fan writer. Stardogs is eligible though, I think? That’s worth a vote. If I errr….had one anyway. How about a little help from my friends that do have votes?

    1. I honestly have no idea what the eligibility requirements are. And while a Hugo nom for it would be a delightful poke in the eye for a few Trad editors, it’s not my best book, or of the level I consider the ‘standard’ to strive for Dune or Lord of Light

      1. A fan writer is: “Any person whose writing has appeared in semiprozines or fanzines or in generally available electronic media during the previous calendar year.” That’s it, no other eligibility requirements.

  6. OT (well this sf/f topic) I bought my mom the dead tree of Joy Cometh and she loved it. She was reading another book when I gave it to her for xmas so she hadn’t gotten to it until recently when she read it on a trip to Florida.

    1. Well, it IS as much sf/f as the Dinosaur thing :-). Maybe a Hugo Nom? (no, I not serious) I am glad she liked it. I’ve been warmed by the response it has got from readers I never thought would go near it.

      1. My mom really enjoyed it. (I know I already said so.) And since she doesn’t live nearby I’m afraid that I read it first and wrapped it up for her Christmas present “used.”

        I’ve been meaning to get to Stardogs.

        When I saw your name for fan writer I sort of went… huh? That didnt’ seem right but I have no idea what the category is supposed to be for.

  7. I won’t be able to follow any of this on Facebook, because I came home from church last night to find that my FB account has been hacked. I reported it & changed my password, but I’m gonna leave the account inactive for a bit. I don’t know HOW my account got hacked; my password is one of those you won’t possibly derive. Maybe it has to do with the new LG tablet my firstborn son got for me. At one point, it asked to link with my FB and I gave permission, and maybe it harbored an glittery hou-ha which tried to scam my friends.
    With respect to the declining sales: I recall hearing (honestly, I think it was in a Tom Clancy book) that the only segment of the Soviet economy that worked was the underground economy. Food, clothing, whatever you needed, could be obtained in open markets (that comes from writer Martin Cruz Smith). So, maybe it’s only the Pravda-related works that show up in the Pravda-official statistics, and the only reason the Pravda-publishing bureaucrats are fussing is that they aren’t having their palms crossed with silver.
    When readers can’t find something good to read, and writers can’t find an outlet for their work, THEN we have a problem. Who is going hungry right now? I have a hard time finding something I want to WATCH, but I’m having no problem finding things to read. Heck, for the past three months, I pretty much have read nothing but work by the Mad Genius Club and writers who post on the blog, and it’s been a GREAT experience. It’s only anecdotal data, I know, but the READERS aren’t going hungry. How about you writers? Anybody going hungry? If not, then I say we just ignore the wails coming from Pravda Publishing, and happily return to capturing spiny lobsters while upside down in the dark waters.

    1. A thought occurs.
      WE know who to read and who to pay attention to, so there’s a very effective filter that we can employ when we want to read a great story.

      But someday, my daughter – my sweet, awesome, geeky daughter who loves zombies (well, loves to shoot them in the head and watch others shoot them in the head), Groot, Dr. Who, Boneshaker, Pokémon, Fantastic Four, Dungeons & Dragons, etc., etc., etc… is going to be looking for a guy who maybe shares some of her interests. It is in my interest as a father to make that field as wide as possible. I’m not concerned for the sake of my daughter. I can give her books, show her movies, point out the difference between good storytelling and bad.

      But I can’t do that for her future husband, because I don’t know that guy. And I don’t know everyone who could be buoyed up by well-told stories that give them hope for the future, a sense of wonder and adventure, a break from the mundane, and a glimpse of what might be – and can’t find it because THAT stuff is surrounded by stuff that tells you that humans are a horrible plague, that the world would be better off without us, that we have a negative impact on our world and everything we touch turns to ashes and dust. It’s ALSO surrounded by stuff where there are no good guys, and anyone with a moral compass is shown to be hopelessly naive before they wind up dead, dead, dead. (Looking at you, Game of Thrones…) Where happiness is shown to be an illusion and despair is the only truth. That toxic worldview we see infects everything, and that’s reason #1 in my mind why SF publishing is shrinking at a time when the top three movies in the US for the last ten years have all been some form of science fiction or fantasy (with the possible exception of Dark Knight Rises… I’m on the fence about whether that’s SF or not).

      1. Zachary Ricks, I have to agree completely with you. I don’t have a daughter (but my sons both married readers) and I may have grand-daughters one day… and I want them to be able to find young men who read. Everything we know points to that being a happier, more stable relationship, and better for their kids too. And yet I have had not one but dozens of female writers saying it doesn’t matter if there are books to appeal to boys. It doesn’t matter if boys read. I wanted my sons to marry readers. Do they want their daughters to marry non-readers? Do they not want them to marry, or give them the best chance to have happy stable relationships? Do they assume their daughters will be gay?

        1. Ehhh… I lean more towards calling it a “technothriller”, like a Tom Clancy book, but it does have a fusion reactor/bomb MacGuffin. Silent helicopter… I’m really on the fence about it.

          1. Don’t forget Bane’s bio stuff, nor the woo-woo with the Shadows group; then again, I consider “technothriller” a large subgroup of scifi, and the “super hero” genera to be a golden example of the mixture of scifi and fantasy. 😀

            1. Oh, totally with you on the superhero thing. And on that list which I collated in a Google Doc, five of the thirty are Marvel Superhero movies.

              I think it behooves people who want to grow the audience for whatever reason to take a look at those movies and games that are doing well, and ask themselves “what are they doing right?”

                    1. Second season of Agents of Shield is way better than the first, and the first was not that bad.

              1. This is something I spend a few cycles pondering, now and again. Hashing through pacing, the benefits of visual for some types of comedy, the smoothness of multi-part dialogue in a visual medium…

                Those are elements, obviously. But the big one, so far somebody at Disney remembers the allure of the hero.

    2. Pat, the only problem writers here suffer from is lack of exposure, and I do thank you for your effort in improving that. The truth is pravda publishing can still afford to put 100 times what I can into marketing. Yes, they may only sell 10 times what I do for that, but it is still a huge advantage we’re trying to catch up on.

    3. Re: The hack. The question is, WHAT asked for permission to link to Facebook. Sounds like malware, which may still be on the device. Get it checked. And if Facebook is like Twitter and has a panel for changing what’s allowed to link to it, find it and turn off permission.

      1. Tango (It’s like Skype) asked for permission, which I gave it. I’m not familiar with Tango, or my new tablet, but I’ll see if there is a panel on Tango to turn off the permission, and when I bring FB back up, I’ll do the same. Thanks for the tip.

  8. On numbers: I glanced through the Wikipedia list of Worldcons the other day, and what struck me is that with a few exceptions like LonCon, attendance has certainly flattened out even as population (and thus potential audience) continues to grow. Since some cities have repeated as host, there are some direct point comparisons available.

    Take Denver, which hosted WC in ’81 and ’08. The population of the Denver MSA was roughly 1.5M in 1981, and roughly 2.6M in 2008. Denvention attendance in ’81 was 3792, and in ’08 it was 3752. Local populations were up over 70%, WC attendance was down 1%.

    San Antonio hosted in ’97 and ’13. MSA in ’97 was 1.4M, in ’13 2.27M. WC attendance was 4634 in ’97, and 4311 in ’13. Local populations were up over 60%, WC attendance was down 7%.

    Then there’s Chicago, which has hosted three WC’s since 1990. ’91, ’00, and ’12. MSA pops in order are 8.2M, 9.1M, and 9.5M. WC attendance in order is 5661, 5794, and 4743. Same trend. I’ve left out other examples, but they show the same trend.

    But it’s WORLD Con, so local population is irrelevant!

    Feel free to run the numbers against world population, it won’t change the trend. I’d say local population is quite relevant, considering we’re not talking about small towns here, but about the appeal to the general public of the field and the event and the awards, and the perceived increasing insularity of the WC itself from the world at large. Feel free to tell us how the trend is a good thing. But please don’t tell us how WC and the Hugos are thriving by shrinking.

    1. Tully, numbers make their heads hurt. And anyway, down is the new up. And it’s all about feelings. And being ‘inclusive’. Which means exclusive. But it’s OK because its only us dirty untermench they’re excluding, so it’s not like its discrimination or anything. And it’s better now less people support it. ;-/

      You’re dead right. And it’s bad for sf in general, and actually worse for their part of it (a big healthy animal can carry more parasites, to put it agriculturally) But the la la la I can’t hear you is pretty loud.

  9. On that Facebook thread, Kevin Standlee wrote, “I tend to think they’ve set up a head-I-win-tails-you-lose scenario: If one of their ‘slate’ wins, they declare victory and Proof that they are in the right and their ‘slate’ is the best works of all time; if they lose, they declare victory and Proof that the Bad People have taken over the process.”

    Which is nonsense. If the Sad Puppies slate had merely done badly in the vote, or even if every work on the slate had come in below No Award, or even if people declared their opposition to block-voting, or even if people did all that and also announced they would vote Vox Day’s story into oblivion, unread, because of his personality and opinions—Sad Puppies would have lost.

    Sad Puppies won last year when people declared their intention to vote against the entire slate, unread, because it included Vox Day. Sad Puppies won when people maligned the characters of all the authors on the slate, and again when people posted calumnies of Larry Correia as a racist/homophobe/misogynist/bigot/sinner that had personal friends calling his wife in concern that she was being abused. Sad Puppies won—but it didn’t have to do so.

    (In fact I can make a case that Sad Puppies was completely unnecessary last year: Its primary point was made by the ugly response to The Wheel of Time’s inclusion on the ballot, when people found it insufficient to merely vote against a work they didn’t like and deemed it necessary to attack the intellect (not merely the taste!) of anyone so benighted as to have enjoyed it and voted for it.)

    1. Joel, I thought KStandlee’s comment amply illustrated why he is a PR nightmare for the Hugo Awards. It is singly, pointedly inappropriate for him to take sides. But in this case, although he meant it as a dismissive pre-emptive sneer, he’s actually right about what will happen. Sad Puppies can’t lose. And his ‘friends’ can’t win. Their only choice is how to take the least damage. Last year they successfully displayed how not only to lose, but to do so spectacularly in the worst and most damaging fashion. They should use it as a case study for ‘how not to’ strategy, or what not to if you don’t want to look terminally stupid and short sighted.The biggest single problem the so-called SJW’s face is a lack of credible alternatives (AKA nominees who are not known outspoken left-wing authors, and who are popular and well known) to the Sad Puppies slate. That would be the cleverest possible thing to do, still a victory for the Sad Puppies, but a mere tactical retreat for them, especially if they got behind some of the Sad Puppy slate too. Not going to happen, though.

  10. To be fair, Sad Puppies involves the man who says things like “I noticed that the number of fake reviews of my books on Amazon declined considerably after I tracked down the woman from Minnesota and posted her address on this blog.” and “I consider women’s rights to be a disease that should be eradicated.” and “a few acid-burned faces is a small price to pay for lasting marriages, stable families, legitimate children, low levels of debt, strong currencies, affordable housing, homogenous populations, low levels of crime, and demographic stability.”

    1. And your point is? That no-one should have nominated Delaney because he was a supporter of NAMBLA, and they should have boycotted his slate? That we should burn all the books by authors published by MZB because she abused her own daughter and did nothing when her ‘husband’ Breen did the same? After all that’s not just speech, that’s actions… Look, when it comes down to bigotry, sexism and racism various nominees and indeed winners can cap most of that. Of course their targets are the designated scapegoats, so that’s all right. Seriously, if you don’t like Vox Day… find someone else, who is not far left of the spectrum to nominate. Make sure they haven’t opened their mouth in public with statements that if you switched sexes/orientation/skin color wouldn’t have them publicly pilloried. “This year I don’t want to have to read any books by straight white men’ – ‘This year I don’t want to have to read any books by gay black women’. Good luck finding suitable candidates, and I mean that. We need far more socio-political diversity. Right now we have a left /far left monoculture. We don’t need any more nominees from a vastly over-represented group.

      Oh and as I wasn’t asked to clear your comment, you have obviously posted here before, but under another name with the same IP address. Don’t do it again. Sock-puppets are not welcome.

      1. From the name style and his obsession with Vox Day, it’s almost certainly Clamps; his caretakers must have let him go online again. Let Vox know about this—he is not allowed to comment on blogs where he’s been banned, and Vox has spoken with the Marshfield police about his stalking.

        1. He is also on Correia’s.

          He doesn’t actually say Vox Day, and he mentions Sad Puppies not Rabid Puppies, so he is either speaking of someone else, or is too unreliable to for the quotes to be trusted.

          1. Clamps AKA Yama has been posting (as “alauda”) on Brad Torgersen’s blog (see the most recent few posts) making the same complaint: that Vox Day stalked him, contacted his friends, and that he also posted the address of another troll. If the moderators check the IP address of “Tradain liMarchborg” it will likely resolve to Marshfield, MA.

            See :
            “If Yama posts additional comments anywhere else, please bring them to my attention right away so that I can report them. I expect there will be a few more minor incidents of a similar fashion as Yama attempts to evade his newly imposed restrictions.”

            1. “posted the address of another troll.”

              With due respect, how is writing a negative review of a novel on Amazon trolling? And even if it was trolling, how is posting her address on his bog acceptable?

    2. With all due respect, what have you been smoking?

      And even if it’s true this year, so what? What has political opinions have to do with the quality of story telling?

        1. This entry mentions Vox and Sad Puppies includes stories published by Castalia House.

          1. And your point is? Exactly? SFWA has members who are murderers but they made an exception to kick Vox out? Yeah, the pissing contest with Jemisin got ugly. Jemisin says stupid shit everywhere, like that all of Australia is racist, or that people have the right to shoot her on the street.
            The RIGHT thing to do would be kick them both out or neither. My vote would be for neither, btw.
            BUT no one is ashamed to be on a slate with her, only with Vox? The only answer to your complaint is “Shut up with your pretend concern for the integrity of science fiction, you vileprog. You support policies that killed 100 million people worldwide. A hundred million. You reek of unjustly shed blood and the grave and every word out of your mouth is a glorification of envy and theft, and you’d preach to us of morality morality? If you had any shame you’d rend your Che shirt and cover yourself in scakcloth and ashes. Go away. These are my middle fingers.”

            1. How is “Australia is racist” any worse than “I consider women’s rights to be a disease that should be eradicated?”

              1. Um… because she can’t possibly know all of Australia (or even a little, let’s be fair.) The other is an opinion.
                Now go away you vileprog. I smell the blood of millions on you. I’m not a death worshiper like you, and it offends me. Scoot. Scam. Scatt. Go to where your ravings pass for profound thought, you pimple in the ass of Stalin.

            2. Jemisin says stupid shit everywhere, like that all of Australia is racist, or that people have the right to shoot her on the street.

              Though admittedly, she’s lucky not to be believed in her own country regarding that statement. Else, obnoxious as she is, she’d probably have to go about escorted by armed guards and wearing full-body armor. My guess is she didn’t quite think through the implications of her own statement.

          2. And last year’s awards had Benjanun Sriduangkaew, a vile troll who stalked and harassed science fiction writers under the handle of Requires Hate and Winterfox. Please show me your outrage over that, Marion Zimmer Bradley’s molesting over her own children, and Edward Kramer.

                1. Clearly, there isn’t– or he wouldn’t have tried to first claim Puppies is evil because of Vox, and then be left scrambling wildly to find any involvement by the fellow….

                  Kinda funny, given the whole nasty (and false) accusation about who is likely to “use a search engine” to check for facts, eh?

                2. Of course, the problem is that you’re using “evil” for things that are actually evil– he prefers “evil” to mean “thing I don’t like which is useful for me to point at and hoot about.”

                3. If there were a statute of limitations on evil, of period sixteen years or less, wouldn’t all the claimed sexist, racist, homophobic writers of the past qualify? Except for the matter of how dubious it is to claim them as such, unless one waters down the classifications until they are meaningless, and have little relation to evil.

      1. Withholding judgment here for now: thus far our old friend the social disease has never bothered to spoof his IP, and “Tradain liMarchborg” has an IP and email address originating in Germany. The name is from a 1997 Bantam book (“The White Tribunal”, Paula Volsky). The email address is a non-existent domain.

        So, high probability of trolling based on the posting pattern, but may not be the social disease. We’ll see…

          1. Thereby demonstrating why you are the Beautiful But Evil Space Princess of the Evil Legion of Evil.

        1. I’m with Joel, it smells like the space fish. And for trace results my money is on the other TOR. As in The Onion Router system, which some deploy to hide their tracks.

              1. I’m not Vox; i don’t have to defend his words. But it sure as Hell seems like you’re only concerned with his words when others who have reprehensible actions get a bye from you.

                Please up your game or go away. You’re no longer interesting.

              2. More to the point, why should we? And whyever would you want us to? The Hugos are still broken. Sad Puppies are still Sad (yet hope springs eternal- this is the doggie dao). Last time I checked, there was still much outrage over the very idea that we should vote on merit rather than on ideology.

                You do not have to vote for the man’s work, or anything his house publishes (though the latter is quite nonsensical to do). Really. No one is forcing your hand. Find something you like, and nominate/vote for that.

                I would humbly suggest that you *try* and find something that’s of better quality than recent years, however. Something apolitical would be nice. Something with a story that grabs you and keeps you up all night long saying “just one more chapter…” Perhaps even something by one of the Sad Puppies authors.

                Go read some of Brad’s posts on it. Seriously. He makes a good case for the Hugos being important. Worth keeping, worth making them *great.* He says a Hugo winner should be a recommendation just about any SF fan could love. Right now, demonstrably, they ain’t.

              3. Andrew (yes, it’s Clamps) post again, having been banned from here for troll behavior before, and I’ll go and delete all your posts. Now buzz off and don’t come back.

                1. “And the Clamps came back/They thought he was a goner/But the Clamps came back/He just wouldn’t stay away . . .”

                2. Wow, he was relatively coherent– apparently having to sneak around those who are trying to keep him from being arrested for criminal harassment improves the quality of his writing.

    3. *raises eyebrow*

      You do realize that folks know how to use a search engine, right? A few paltry quotes in a drive-by commenting fashion do little to endear your audience, and much to explain you (lack of) character. It tends to lead us to the conclusion that you are merely a troll, and a poor one at that.

      Stand up on your hind legs and make a coherent statement. Make an argument with some *teeth* in it. Even better if it is actually *on topic.* Take your lumps with equanimity, refine your tactics when flaws are pointed out, and gain some respect from those who ought to be worthy of anyone’s respect.

      Most of the point here involves maths. Simple statistics, even. Are the assumptions in error? Is the conclusion supported by enough evidence? Surely there must be a better argument than “Sad Puppies has a big meanie on their slate!”

      If that’s all you’ve got, I swear the quality of the opposition has not only fallen off, but *plummeted.* Are we down to schoolyard insults and puerile games? This does nothing to help the cause of “But the Hugo’s are *just fine* as they are!” if that is your intention.

      1. I’m not saying you don’t know how to search for things, I’m saying that you won’t search for things.

        1. As opposed to a troll who is actively refusing to address the content of the original post?
          And who is happily throwing around non sequiturs unrelated to the slate?

          Alternately, he’s just an idiot. Which I suppose we can’t rule out.

        2. *shakes head*

          You can read past the first two lines, right? Thus far, I’m not seeing much comprehension. That’s a flaw that needs to be addressed if you want to avoid being called a troll. On the other hand, if you don’t care then your behavior thus far pretty much defines you as “Concern Troll.” That’s not a category one wants to be in if one wants folks to take them seriously.

          Once again. Make. An. Argument. Try for more than two sentences. Pack your post with words that mean something meatier than “But, but, meanies!” Try to stay on topic. These wild flights of fancy through the heather are neither entertaining nor informative.

          Have you any idea how often we get such callow twaddle masquerading as legitimate questions? How tired we are of such vapid tripe? If the Hugo’s are A) not biased at all or B) they are, but it doesn’t matter; then defend those points of view! Bring evidence, links, hell, bring maths even- we’re not afraid of numbers. Do these things and leave off bothering with this little hate parade. It’s not doing you any favors.

          1. That little red herring isn’t getting you any fishbites. If you are so enamored of the man, why bring that fascination here? It has little, if anything at all, to do with the Hugo fiasco, spiny lobsters, the integrity of a man who refuses an honor which he feels it would not be right to accept (should he be considered and win said honor), maths, or even casinos.

            I’m sure you are very flattered by all the attention, but then so are toddlers when they use their Big Voices. I’m still seeing nothing more than “the meanies, the meanies are being so very, very mean!” That’s not even close to helping your case.

    4. I’ve started to suspect that what this is ALL about, really ALL about, is social positioning and in no way whatsoever about which books anyone likes to read.

      One must be SEEN to be virtuous and may do so by having a public fit of the vapours over Vox Day. Anyone who refuses to have a public fit of the vapours over Vox Day can then be pointed to as evidence of the pointer’s great and amazing virtue. “Oh, praise you Lord that I am not like THAT MAN OVER THERE.”

      Well, poo. A bunch of people utterly refuse to play and, more than that, instead of having a public fit of vapours they look down their noses and have the GALL to feel superior to the little pious display of writhing in the isles. If they were decent people, no doubt, they’d just throw a blanket over those who have been transported past decency and look the other way while praising the depth of their worship and devotion. But nooooooo… some of them even point out that all the hyperventilating is pretty darn stupid.

      But then there’s the “you just want science fiction to be all white male dominated forever!” Which is only proof that the books, who writes them and who is *in* them, don’t actually count for anything. It’s all about having a more dramatic religious experience in front of as many onlookers as possible.

      (And incidentally, isn’t there a restraining order or something involved with going all over the internet just to inform as many people as possible that they’re supposed to have public fits of vapours over Vox Day? Do you have any notion AT ALL how easy it is to just avoid the man? Get a life.)

  11. The problem with sci fi and fantasy was that It got too big and popular thanks to computer games and some films. The various lobby groups saw this as a chance to influence young people and a like and dived straight in. If it stayed a backwater in Literature. it could have kept its independents and rolled all over the ideas spectrum at will. Sad that.

    1. Really? Perhaps I misunderstand your point, but I was not aware that the goal of any type of writing, aside perhaps from academic monographs and articles, was to limit the audience in order to expand the freedom to create. Yes, certain groups have been using SF/F, or according to my personal opinion misusing it, to push message fiction over fun, creative stories that might happen to have a bit of moral to them, but I don’t think the movies and games are to blame. The “rot” (in my opinion) started in the 1970s and 1980s, when it was still seen as nerdy. The independence is still there, just not from the major houses (Baen excepted, as usual). The trick is to let people know where they can find books and stories with that old range of ideas and styles. Thus the need and goal of Sad/Rabid/ Puppies.

      1. I think the point was that they started trying to take it over when it became something acceptable– basically, became a target to a type of attack we’d never dealt with before, BECAUSE it became successful enough.

      2. Txred, I read and reviewed Elizabeth of Starland, and you would look FABULOUS in a crown! I don’t know that you actually have one, but the way you write, any number of countries should make you their queen. You don’t mention Machiavelli, though, so maybe just Admiral of the Navy or General of the Army.
        Anyway, something with a good retirement plan, so you can keep writing.
        Umm…please keep writing.

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