Yesterday in the comments to my blog I ran into a familiar confusion.

Someone in the comments — hi Mary — suggested the best you can do for a writer is to leave a review or even a rating (but preferably a review) even if the review is “I really liked this book. I particularly like it where John stubs his toe and calls the rock a bad name.”

Someone else answered by pointing out that she couldn’t do that, because she’s been informed that giving a book a three or four star review is not good, and when that’s what she wants to give, she just doesn’t review.

Long, suffering sigh.

Once upon a time I was a professional translator, so this is the sort of situation I specialized in. Or in other words, what we have here is a failure to communicate.

Look, I even understand the confusion. Amazon has five stars after all. Therefore you should be able to choose precisely how you feel about the book. And the most common of those would be 3 with 2 not being so bad. Because, seriously, most books we read we feel like “okay, that was a book” or at least that’s true for most people who read a couple of books a day, right? I mean unless something knocks our socks out which happens maybe once a month it’s a “Okay, that’s a three.” And if something is really amazing, but we know that they should have taken more time with the ending, or cut out a scene that makes no sense whatsoever, you give it a four, and you feel generous.

Unfortunately you’re speaking the reader language, the language in which you would talk to your friends about a book when you’re saying “Oh, yeah this is good” or “Oh, that was cool, it’s about a three. Nice to read by the fire on a winter night.”

Amazon, possibly because the programing was easier, or possibly because it makes sense to have a binary thing for stuff like, uh, teakettles and pens, and because Amazon hates itself for selling books, has written its algorithm so it has two ratings: five star and one star. Or if you prefer it: ice cream of death.

Unfortunately it doesn’t interpret anything that’s not one star as five stars. no. They interpret everything that’s not five star as one star, and therefore death.

And if you’re going to leave reviews, you have to speak the algorithm language and crack the cold equations.

If it helps, imagine a drunken little elf behind the Amazon front page, and it’s doing all these calculations in a drunken little elf way. The minute you get a one star review the drunken little elf panics and goes “oh, no. Oh No. This product is obviously death. It’s going to kill dozens of people.” And then it hides your book forever, so you don’t claim another victim of bad prose.

I do appreciate that you’re sitting there going “but some books are only a four, or a three.” But what you sound like is my mom, screaming louder and louder in Portuguese at my kids, in the belief that if she spoke loud enough the kids will get the one true language.

There might be some site, perhaps, somewhere, where you can perhaps put up a true review.

But that site is not Amazon.

On Amazon you’re either saying “yep this is a book” which is what a five star amounts to or “This book will kill anyone who reads it, run away, run away.”

Okay so “but I don’t want to lie”. That’s fine, though you’re not lying. You’re speaking the algorithm’s language. If you want to clarify how you really feel about the book, you then leave a review to go with the five stars.

Sorry. I know I sound a little aggressive, but put yourself in my shoes for a moment.

You see, the problem is that we, the algorithm also thinks the minimum number of reviews a halfway decent book that should get promoted has is 1000, not you know, 100.

And they’re perfectly willing to accept the fake reviews from trad pub, who buy them by the batch load. But Indies? Gah. They’ll even take away reviews on the suspicion that you must have somehow bought them even though they can’t prove it.

So have some mercy on us indies, will you? Throw us a five star. tell the little drunk elf that our books will not in fact kill innocent bystanders who open them.

And don’t worry. no one actually cares if you gave it a five when it should really, in a platonic ideal system, have been a four. No one will ever know.

Except the little Drunken Elf might — keep in mind — MIGHT not bury our book never to be discovered again.

40 responses to “Ice Cream or Death”

  1. I appreciate reviews that say, “I’d have given this a four and a half (or four) because [reason}, but that’s not an option so here’s a 5 and an honest review.”

  2. Depressing info, Sarah, but good to know.

  3. I’ve given (five star) reviews that said I didn’t like the book, but that it wasn’t because it was a BAD book, why it wasn’t for me and who would like it.

  4. Fascinating. I was under the impression that Amazon, like most data driven sites, simply ignores any ratings that are not 1 star or 5 star, not that they deceptively treat any non 5 star rating as the same as 1 star. Having created, as well as used, many surveys, I have thoughts about such vile nonsense, but I’ll refrain from being the old man yelling at clouds.

    As to reviews, I don’t try to encourage them because most readers are not writers and can’t write a review that moves the needle. But then, I’m a nobody, and maybe that’s why. 🙂

    1. The NUMBERS move the needle. That’s all.

    2. It’s all quantity, not quality. (Hi, Sarah!)

    3. Besides, the clouds had to coming.

      1. Based on what everyone’s said, those clouds are going to get a real tongue lashing! Cheaper than hiring a lawyer to spend a decade suing Amazon. LOL

    4. I served a sentence in retail for a big box store, and those “surveys” are even worse. They have a scale of 1-10, instead of just 1-5, but that only means that any rating under 9 is a failure, and getting a 9 makes you subject to remedial training. Imagine: The store has what you want, it’s on sale, the person who greets you and asks if they can help takes the item from the shelf, places it in a cart, and brings it to the register, where you have to wait 3 minutes in line.

      You give a “9” on the survey (because of the wait), and the employee who assisted you gets a talking to from the department manager because “Our standard for service is a ’10′”. Heaven forfend you get an “8”, which may as well be a zero.

      Please, for the sake of all retail employees, never ever fill out a survey.

      1. I once had the job of running an “operational test” where the creators of a new custom-made software platform for a group of workers distributed world-wide trained the group for two weeks on how to use the software. I created the test, which consisted of a set of 16 typical tasks that were done with the application. I had the users score each task as:

        Unusable
        Less than acceptable
        Acceptable
        Better than current practice
        Very useful

        For evaluation and easy calculation, I scored the results as 1-5 and then tabulated them. I had stated ahead of time for the evaluators that I would consider an average score of 3.7 to be passing, but I gave them the results for each individual task as well as the cumulative score. This let both the users and the evaluators understand perfectly what the criteria were and allowed them to spot any area that needed enhancement.

        If anyone is actually interested in what their customers think about their services and products, I recommend they use the Red Cross’ blood donation surveys as an example. Those are brilliantly made and changed often enough that they can’t be filled out by rote. The after donation survey does a great job of sorting out the things the employee has control over and the procedures required by the business for separate evaluation.

  5. Huh … doesn’t surprise me today that Amazon “disappears” 1-star reviews. I took the trouble to write a 1-star review for a novel about three nurses in WWII-era Philippines, which had plaudits galore, but a couple of howling historical errors — errors which ought to have been caught, if not by the writers (there were three of them, too) then by an editor. (This novel apparently pubbed by an establishment big-name publisher, who flaunted NY Times best-selling status.) Got the email from Amazon saying that my review had been posted … but actually not anywhere visible on the listing for the book.

    How very curious: a Schrödinger’s book review. It’s posted, but not posted.

    1. No, they actually disappear books with one star reviews. BUT lately they haven’t been publishing reviews. It’s just weird.

      1. I’ve noticed a long delay, sometimes a month or more between people telling me they reviewed a book of mine and it showing up on amazon. That part has been happening to me for years.

        1. Yes. I only noticed it this year.

        2. sigh

          yet another reason to long for more activity outside Amazon

          1. I’ve put No Man’s Land wide recently and…. Barnes and Noble is a mess to even put stuff in.
            And I can’t. I figured out why. I had an account before I got the LLC. There’s no way to change my account. AND NO WAY TO DELETE IT.
            Publishing to it from Draft to Digital, it published with no cover. Not even joking. Sigh. Yes. We need something.

            1. Odd. I’ve never had that trouble with D2D reaching B&N.

              1. It reached. Just without a cover.

                1. Paul (Drak Bibliophile) Howard Avatar
                  Paul (Drak Bibliophile) Howard

                  I decided to check KoboBooks and all three volumes of No Man’s Land are there (with covers). 😉

                  1. Paul (Drak Bibliophile) Howard Avatar
                    Paul (Drak Bibliophile) Howard

                    On the other hand, Volume 1 doesn’t include your name. [Puzzled]

                    1. Oh, that’s interesting. Might be my bad. I was feverish when I put them up. I’ll check tomorrow. No good right now. Revisions are simple through D to D

      2. Amazon is currently doing a revamp of Dancing with AI and that is messing a lot of things up in the review world. It’s a mess.

        1. It’s messing the sales count too. Sometimes bizarrely. As in someone says “just bought x” and he’s someone I trust.
          No x shows up on the sales. Does it show up later? Well, I HOPE so.

          1. The cases where that verifiably happened to me (usually extended family buying a book), it did show up eventually. Been a few years since I was paying close enough attention to see it happen though.

  6. gafisher124C41+ Avatar
    gafisher124C41+

    After my first retirement I took a sales job (and made Top Ten in my region repeatedly thanks very much!) with a very large international company that follows up with customers in the form of a single five-choice question, ranging from Completely Dissatisfied to Completely Satisfied. Just as with Amazon, any response but Completely Satisfied counted against you.

    1. This is why I no longer answer the store surveys (How was your visit today?) that they present at the checkout.

      They don’t generate any kind of useful or meaningful data.

      And might result in a perfectly reasonable cashier being fired.

      1. Which is why the “Master Bull Artists” are treating non response as a bad review in some cases.

  7. I believe, for Reasons (mostly because of who works for Amazon, hi Greg!) that they manipulate the algo, the rankings, the reviews and etc. for reasons other than selling e-books. They appear to have no interest whatsoever in selling e-books.

    But, since Amazon is the only game in town, I shrug and carry on, content with my dozens of sales and -crushing- Amazon ranking. Angels Incorporated, my second book, currently ranked 1,551,866.

    There is a very large amount of AI-generated bumf rated higher. It literally can’t be that bad,

    Kind of a flex for me, honestly. Whatever nefarious BS they’re doing, I’m clearly not helping them do it. Yay, go me.

    Also they’ve been deleting reviews and ratings. All my old ones are gone now, no new ones are appearing.

    If I had an alternative place to sell, I’d certainly go there.

    1. Something will supplant them but until then….

      1. You know, given the state of dead-tree, not to mention the music business, I really wonder what it’ll take to make a system where authors are paid anything at all.

        Just like DeadTree, here we are paying for the privilege of doing all the marketing work, in the desperate hope that somebody will like our book and give us a dog biscuit, like Snuffles from Quick Draw McGraw.

        You would think that a company that sells books would leverage their data to give authors a heads-up, but they don’t. Even though it would be trivial using AI tools.

        Therefore I conclude they’re not selling books. They’re farming us in the hope we will buy ads.

        Given my experience with Amazon ads, one Sunday mention on Sarah’s book list gets more sales than several hundred dollars worth of ads. So I’m not going to be a good little sheep. Baaaad Phantom! ~:D

  8. This seems to happen with any digital ranking system. Ice cream or death. Nothing inbetween.

    1. I don’t think it’s so much the ranking system, as the folks who want to use the ranking to apply it across a large demographic rather than for the individual doing the ranking. Even when the ranking is explicitly a matter of taste for the individual.

      The infamous “most men are below average” thing from OKCupid was taken by assuming women were using the ranking as a scale of “this guy is very hot” down to “this guy is ugly.”

      A ranking of 1 would block the guy and, if he also rated you as a one, you’d both get a nasty gram. A ranking of 5 would send him a note saying “hi, I think you’re cute.”

      They somehow didn’t expect that there would be basically zero ratings of 5, from women, with 1 and 2 treated as “not interested.” Which could be a simple as “he’s with a dog on a hike in his photo, I am allergic to dogs and nature.”

      1. Sheesh. How clueless can they get? Anyone who’d given it a modicum of thought would have realized that that automated system would result in 4 being the maximum rating most women would give. Because who wants an “I think you’re cute” message being sent to some stranger on the Internet, who might turn out to be an obsessive stalker type whom you would regret informing of your existence? Most men aren’t like that, but all it takes is finding one to make for some very uncomfortable interactions.

        One would think a site with a name like OKCupid would be aware of such things, but apparently not.

        1. To be fair to the dating site, their only involvement with the crazy was that they actually let the information out, and they were being FUNNY.
          With the context that the average extended conversation was with guys who were a 2 or 3, while guys were overwhelmingly contacting 4s and 5s. :grins in delight at people being *people*:

          It’s the folks who want to forget that the rating system was being used by people for their own purpose.

  9. […] post will be a rant. The proximate trigger was Ice Cream or Death by Sarah Hoyt, but I’ve been thinking about this off and on for […]

  10. *****
    Entertaining article. My favorite part was the very inconvenient typo that made “ice cream or death” to “ice cream of death” which made my mind wander a little bit to what the article “Ice Cream of Death” would mean in terms of Amazon book ratings.

    1. My fingers keep turning or to of. It’s a COMPLETELY typo (finger) thing. Why push the homekey instead of the one above it is…. special. BUT I always have to do an “of” search in my books, or my editors will be super-puzzled.

  11. Ergh, it’s the dreaded Net Promoter Score. This is a standard algorithm used for surveys, etc. Basically, you have people score some thing, then take the the percentage of people giving scores in the top 20% minus the percentage of people giving scores in the (usually) bottom 60%, giving a total that ranges from -100 to +100.

    If this is what Amazon is using, then 1-3 stars is a negative, 4 is neutral and 5 is a positive.

    It’s based on the idea some marketroid came up with that people always inflate ratings.

    In my Opinion, most online ratings are pretty useless. There’s no context and you have different people with different tastes, opinions, etc for different reasons. Trying to average them is adding apples and oranges and dividing by tomatoes.

    1. In books most people DEFLATE things, because we have the platonic ideal of our favorite book in our minds as we rate.
      It’s stupid and insane.
      Ratings are useful but only the extremes. Literal — note it’s me speaking. I’m not anti-ai and think some genres would be fine with it, though AI is not at that point yet — AI slop (probably Chinese produced. Let me put it this way, I read a mystery and couldn’t tell who had died much less who the killer was.) gets buried under a couple hundred one stars in the first day out, and it disappears. That’s useful when I’m depressed and looking for Jane Austen fanfic to read. In fact the flowering of AI slop (literal slop, not just because it’s AI) was only about a month in JAFF because they couldn’t get a hook in.
      BUT== but– the rest? The reviews are useful when buying. The star rating not so much.

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