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Bare is the brotherless back.

“Even leaving the oceans was bad idea, and the concept of leaving the trees, bound to end in tears and New York City…” I never had a lot of time for genealogy. Life is really about who YOU are and what YOU make of your life. Still genetics – or perhaps family traditions — do seem to if not so much repeat, to follow trends. In some ways my family are a hidebound a set of conservatives – at least about family traditions. The Freer coat of arms, registered in the 1540’s IIRC was granted to William Leacroft Freer. The use of Leacroft as a second or third Christian name is still inflicted on the boys. It was very useful for those games where you could pass if your name had the right letters, and a pain in butt for signing any official document. But no Freer would dream of abandoning the family names. We just inflict them on the next generation.

The family coat of arms crops up even earlier in the lowlands of Scotland – It bears the same charges, and these are unusual – they are dolphins. There may be something in my father’s story that shame over their inability to spell ‘Frere’; drove them south. My inability to spell MUST be genetic!

Because that is what the name means, the motto, in various forms with the various cadet branches is “Love thy brother” or “Brother for Brother”. There is a theory the name derives from Brothers (friars) who took that loving part a trifle physically and, considering they ended up outside of the church and with offspring to carry on the name, not with their brothers, either.

But I didn’t come here to bore you with centuries of my family’s windmill-tilting attempts to out Quixote Quixote or their great public service to future generations, and to amputations (the family appears to have produced generations of doctors – largely to the nobility and gentry. Think how many more of those there’d be if they’d had genius there. And, if that failed, Military Surgeons. Great Grandad was the last of those, a Surgeon General in Ireland, and later in Natal in the Boer war. He probably was responsible for that famous universal military medical treatment, the wire brush and Dettol, good for shrapnel, good for laryngitis. Oh, and the famous Boer complaint about the British feeding prisoners crushed glass – Epsom Salts — but sounds more awful and evil if you claim it as ground glass.)

Instead I wanted to write about one the most valuable things in the sf-fantasy world. Like a lot of us, I blundered into this because I enjoyed sf/fantasy and had from when I was a wee gossoon. It had been part of my life and shaped my life, fed me on dreams and hopes. In a way, I suppose there was nothing I aspired to more as a kid, sitting in warm afterglow of a Heinlein, Norton, Simak or Anderson novel, than to be a writer of such stories. I didn’t dream of matching them, but even half as good, well there must be an insatiable need for those, surely? I’m actually a fairly bright and able monkey, and really could have picked a fair number of possible careers outside of the janitorial, and made a success, and probably a fair amount of money out of it. I did get talked out of writing. I did make a reasonable degree of success out of second-best. But eventually I did come back to writing. A large part of that was… I just wasn’t seeing as many books I wanted to read. I still couldn’t really see myself as a Zelazny or Diana Wynne Jones or Pratchett. But I was sure I could scrape past some of what I was seeing. The need must be dire…

It was a lot harder to succeed at than I’d imagined it could be. I’m the sort of guy that has actually succeeded at rather a lot of things by sheer obstinacy and small amount of brain. This… came very close to beating me. One of the worst parts of it was that I was in a small, far off country, pre-internet (for me anyway) which had barely any fandom, and no traditionally published sf novelists at all (I was the first). There was no group of peers, no brothers-in-arms in this struggle. Just snail-mail.

It was exceptionally isolated.

Two things eventually happened. Firstly, I sold my first novel – on the bludgeoning edge selection technique of sending in alphabetical order subs first to every South African publisher that would accept them, then every UK publisher (most SA books were UK imprints, often of American authors. But I didn’t know that) that would take them (addresses from a years out-of-date Writers and Artists Marketplace) – and then the US. The US was furthest and foreign to me. I was writing my sixth book by then.

And secondly, we finally got the internet – 1999, about 3 months after selling that book.

At last, I thought, discovering the marvels of fandom, and fellow writers, a brotherhood to belong to. No, I didn’t give a damn if ALL of the ‘brothers’ were ‘sisters’. This was family. I was young, gauche, intimidated and brash. A pain in the ass, in other words – but they were ‘family’. It didn’t take long to discover that they were quite a dis-functional family, complete with weird cousin Vinnie and crazy Aunt Lizzie. But they were my family to whom I was loyal. And if my books were good they would love them too, and me. I put my heart into that next book – RATS BATS & VATS, everything I could give. I wanted my brothers-in-arms to get my best, and hopefully recognize it for a good book. After all, it was my first as one of them.

And of course, it got ‘Oh. Baen.’ And ignored from pretty much everyone who wasn’t part of the Baen stable in the traditional establishment. I was very disappointed in the sales (which I think were quite a respectable 21K for the paperback. Back then I thought that very little) and no visibility outside of Baen’s Bar. I started to realize that not all brothers were equal, but I still believed merit triumphed over everything, and I’d just have to work harder. I still remember some time along the track John Ringo said that the Hugos were all about politics and conservatives didn’t get a fair shake. I thought he was nucking futs and said so.

I was wrong. Very wrong. I’ve apologized to him since. But I was still hopelessly idealistic about all. By now I’d come over to the US on a couple of trips to cons, World Con, World Fantasy, and one in Rochester, NY. I was… not on panels, or where I was I’d be the only pro. I attended lots, of course, and yeah, I did realize for some reason I was getting hind-teat. But hey, this was my band of brothers. They just didn’t know me.

It was slowly starting to sink in that it wasn’t all the band-of-brothers, but that there definitely was a very left wing mean girls table in the junior high cafeteria element to it. And just as the brothers weren’t all male, the mean girls weren’t all female.

Still, I made some friends, sold more books, soldiered my way on, slowly realizing that merit might count, but that writers of great merit were falling by the wayside, while for some reason, others got the love and push with little merit that I could see. Remember, this was an outsider, a guy who had spent less than twenty days in the US – which really was where sf/fantasy publishing had its heart. And, almost because I was outside I could see things were slowly getting worse. More marginalizing anyone the mean girls didn’t like. More leaving aside anyone, especially new entrants, that didn’t kiss up right. The places you really needed brotherhood and support as writer – as a little guy dealing with powerful agents, and even more powerful publishers, not to mention the ancillary stuff that hung on these – oddly, the mean girls were snuggling up tight with people who seriously should have been outside the pale. You can’t have an author’s organization that supposedly supports authors – when the very people that screw them over most are inside it, and privy to any discussion.

And then we had the Sad Puppies.

You know what was particularly special about the whole Sad Puppies thing? One author got up and SAID, publicly, what a fair number of people had begun to think. But if you even muttered a hint of it, you were shouted down, and told you were the only person who ever thought that ridiculous thought. Only Larry has a very loud voice, and didn’t mutter. Suddenly quite a few of us realized we weren’t alone, and maybe it wasn’t ridiculous.

I did the numbers properly, saw the situation for what it was… published it, and still fondly and idealistically imagined that the sf-family would look at this and say ‘Oh Shit. That’s not right, we need to fix this.”

Yeah. Well… No. We got text-book communist DARVO. Deny, Attack, Reverse victim with offender. Somehow the small and weak were suddenly supposed to be bullying and threatening the megalithic establishment with every single advantage on its side. We also got the other SOP in their attacks – they set out to isolate and demonize. To destroy careers, to wreck reputations… over what? A plastic rocket? Oddly enough, the behavior of Stalin’s little commissars is remarkably close to that of abusive spouses. Maybe it’s just one of the nasty aspects of humans.

And it was at this point that I suddenly realized the difference between fair-weather acquaintances on a shared road and brothers. There were plenty of people who knew us. Yet when the little commissars from the mean girls table went shrieking that we were everything from Nazis to racists and we must be denounced, ostracized… brothers stood up and said ‘Hang on. I know Dave, he’s a guy who risks his life rescuing people that he can’t possibly know the skin color or orientation of.’ Or “I’ve read his books, he’s not ….ist.” But most of the others – if they were writers anyway – knew that if they did not denounce, the mean girls commissars would turn on them, and proclaim them guilty by association.

Yeah, you learn who your brothers-in-arms are, and just how valuable they are. And how bare the brotherless back is. I’ve lost a lot of acquaintances (if not sales, despite their efforts) over Sad Puppies – but, oddly, I found that brotherhood I was looking for. And no, Sarah, Amanda, Cedar, Dorothy, to name people I have come to value and trust, aren’t male. Brad and Peter are. There are many others, I keep finding new ones. Actually I have no idea what the skin color or sexual orientation of many of my brothers are. However: They share my love for this genre, they want everyone possible to enjoy it, to read it. And they’ll judge you and your work on its merits, and you know they’ve got your back. They’re not going to give up to just to appease the mean girls.

I’ve just been through another DARVO here on MCG — one that illustrates perfectly the waste of time it is to appease the mean girls. Now Brad put up a post here about Camestros Felapaton – a dedicated puppy kicker whose modus operandi was come and sea-lion endlessly, but semi-politely, and then take selective bits back to his own site or Vile 777 and vent his spleen and delight in providing the other puppy kickers in a nice five-minute-hatey hate. Eventually Camestros got banned from here, a long while back. Because I’m a Sun Tzu kind of guy, I’d worked out who this anonymous bow-fly was. I like to know what I am dealing with – and it wasn’t very hard. A simple logic puzzle with increasingly small subsets of people that it could be, and then a case of matching the IP address with a known employment and unlikely-by-chance locality for an Australian of the right interests and background -and then addressing him as ‘Fieldsy’ (his name is Meadows) and having his endless turgid flow suddenly vanish along with him. That was good enough for me. He’s a young ass playing a nasty game, but I was young once. When he turned up again, I warned him to give it up, that it would end in tears for him and his partner.

Fieldsy of course thought himself too smart to take advice from a stupid old man, and despite the evidence, believed he was far cleverer than anyone out there. He has spent an inordinate amount time sea-lioning all over place. He got himself into his usual attacks on everyone not to the left of Lenin, including a fellow, Richard Paolinelli, who is trying to set up an alternative to SFWA – which has become useless to working writers, because it is a mean girls table with editors and agents sitting in. It does little more than play Social Justice games and really – we need a place where writers can be part of a supportive brotherhood. Now, I don’t know Richard at all (we became facebook friends I think two days ago). Somehow (and I don’t know the whole story) Lou Antonelli got involved. Now, my acquaintance with Lou is of the slightest. He writes sf. I’m ready to accept a facebook friend request from almost anyone who does. But I don’t think either of us have posted on the other’s page, prior to this, not even as much as a ‘like’ before this. He seems a damn straight shooter, and a fine fellow that I’d like as a brother, in what I’ve seen since. Lou burst Fieldsy’s anonymity bubble on FB.

Fieldsy or his friends whined, got Lou banned. Lou echoed his post on his own site. Brad, who does know Lou, was quite pissed and amplified the signal.

But, somehow, I gather it’s all MY fault? Because no one could possibly work out the slime trail the soooper genius left behind him. No one but me that is. And yeah, Fieldsy frequently told his friends how dumb I was…

Let’s try a little logic. IF I had wanted to break his anonymity, I’d do it. Remember I’m the guy pointed out that Patrick Neilsen Hayden had his finger in Hugo pie, in breach of the rules – that’s biggest mean girl at the mean girl’s table – I am not scared of confronting the biggest let alone an irrelevancy like Fieldsy. This is pure projection from someone who skulks around in a cloak of anonymity and back-stabs from safety. If I was going to tell someone else when they were harassed – then I would have told one my good friends, like Brad or Sarah. Both of them have been harassed by the twerp, and neither are in least afraid to confront hell with a half cup of spit. But I’m going to rush off and tell some guy I barely know because of a fight I didn’t know was happening?   If you believe this, you really have Fieldsy’s level of logic and intellect. I have this bridge to sell you. My only ‘crime’ was telling the young fool to pack it in because he was going to get caught, that he wasn’t as smart as he thought he was – because I can see the obvious and probable end to this saga.  And it ends with just what the puppy kickers tried to do to my career. They think the end justifies the means – which is fine for them until they find what they tried to do to others for their ‘end’ happening to them.

Like Bilbo, it was pity that stayed my hand, because I believe the means shapes the end.

I’ll give another bit of advice to Fieldsy and Foz. When you’re in a hole, stop digging. There’s a lot of worse that I don’t think you’ve thought of that you could bring down on yourselves – and not from me. Nothing to do with me. At moment you could walk away with a bit of bruising and 10 years down the track everyone will have forgotten. Keep going and that stops being true. I don’t think you’ve thought of these things because you’re not very logical and not a quarter as bright as you think you are. I’d rather not spell them out in case you start blaming me when they do happen.

But wait! There’s more. Mean Girl Commissar Jim Hines – who never found a SJW pogrom bandwagon he didn’t eagerly try and join, has decided that I am to be isolated and swarmed. I used to think Jim just got on these bandwagons to get noticed. His books have become so SJW preaching that they’re more like long left-wing talking point sermons – which, even with relentless push has a limited market. Hence the need to market himself to that group and to please his publisher, who sees the world similarly, so she’ll push him. Shrug. It’s a dying, small niche, and he and his readers are welcome to it. But looking at his behavior I have come to conclude he actually enjoys it. Think hard about the kind of people who choose to do this.

Hinesy is working hard at the Attack and Reverse part. I haven’t been to twitter for years –since I found out as social media channel it sells miniscule amounts for the author – something like 1 book per 10K followers — but someone sent me a message that he has been stirring desperately to try get a nice pogrom going. To get people to denounce me, people he assumes are ‘friends’. Lots of pointing and shrieking from the mean girl powers of Traditional sf on Twitter – the ones who don’t write much, and sell less, but have all day to spend on Twitter.  And his attack and reverse center is… That I said what most people think.

This comes back to Sad Puppies once again: if you can stop people saying what they think, you can convince them they’re isolated and possibly wrong. Or at least you can silence them, so everyone thinking that believes they’re alone.  Once it has been said, well they might find that actually nearly everyone thinks that, except for the thought police who consider it evil wrongthink and will try and isolate and swarm you. It’s one of the unexpected rewards of the current US President Donald J Trump – He has actually said what a lot of people thought, but were too scared to say because they got attacked by the SJW thought-police. Now they discover that actually millions of people share that opinion.

And ‘said’ is better than ‘suppressed’. If it is said and can be talked about, you might change my mind arguing a point with me, but silencing doesn’t actually change my opinion. The only time silencing is worthwhile is when you have no point to make.

So: the question was asked as to why Fieldsy was so frantic to deny. After all, it would make him a hero among puppy kickers. And no, no one would be likely to waste effort on doing an actual Doxx, or even anything beyond trivia to him. He’s just too irrelevant. Hinesy really had to dig for this piece to be outraged by – it’s way down in the comments – But I’ll repeat it here, to save you looking. I’ll stop at a point and ask you a question to see if you thought what I thought. (I left out parts 1 & 2 – you can go and look them up if you like.)

3) His efforts started by attacking the sad puppies when his wife was one of the beneficiaries of them being attacked and eliminated. Now, I am of the kind who believes a man ought to support his wife’s work and ambitions – but if he did so in under his own name that would have two negative consequences a)People would see he had vested interest and weigh what he said in that light. b)It shone a light on his partner’s ‘gender-queer’ credentials, that she would be damaged by.

4) As in (3b) Foz is very careful not to talk much about the fact that for a ‘gender-queer’ leading author – she’s quite vanilla, Married, sharing the same name, being supported by and moving with her husband. So: either she’s the Rachael Dolezal of ‘gender-queer’ or he’s a straight man who tolerates her less-than-traditional interpretation of marriage… or he’s also, shall we say ‘genderqueer’ and using marriage as front. As that is a very reminiscent description of the situation between…

Okay so here’s the question: Just which famous sf/fantasy writer and fan ‘marriage for cover’ of a left wing feminist lesbian/bi and her homosexual husband springs immediately to your mind?

Yeah, mine too. And I actually said it. And that was wicked wrong-think. Jim Hines wants you to ostracise me for. Because if I don’t say it ABSOLUTELY no one will think it. /s

My point was that IF their relationship is a front – just one real possibility (and personally I don’t care what they do or don’t do in bed) they had to be aware that this would spring to people’s minds. That’s exactly what I said:

MZB and Breen, if that is the case, there are very good reasons to not draw attention to it.

I have no idea which of these relationship scenarios is correct. But one is. And none of them are things I could see them wanting to draw attention to. People are bound to think precisely what I thought as a possibility. No amount of declaring it wrongthink is going change that. The fact that MZB and Breen were also child abusers and used their left-wing credentials to shield themselves, much like Harvey Weinstein, has to occur to people, no matter if the new version would never dream of it – or not. It doesn’t help that Fieldsy went on the offensive against the book about one of MZB and Breen’s child victims, but that may just have been him being stupid, again.

If you don’t want obvious comparisons made, don’t be like what you’re obviously going to be compared to. Or there’s the Jim Hines/SJW version: Dress like Elvis, do your hair like Elvis, walk around singing ‘you ain’t nothing but a hound dog’ but have a kitten fit if anyone says ‘Elvis’, and demand they be silenced. Or to put it in more current context, if you don’t want your country called a shit-hole, don’t have lots of people dying of fecal-borne disease because lots of your people don’t have basic sanitation. I know: It’s a lot more effective to fix it, but harder work than just demanding everyone condemn whoever said it, and thus silence them –but which is the better option?

So that’s my side of the story. If you want to go along with Commissar Hines and denounce me, go for it. I have brothers at my back and my side. And for the record I can find no statement by Commissar Hines denouncing the left wing feminist lesbian-bi MZB or Breen, or expressing any sympathy or support for their victims, so one has to ask: why does HE finds it suddenly so bad to have someone compared to them? Edit: Mea culpa. As Jayne points out Jim Hines DID once post about them, and, for Hines, it was quite a good post. It didn’t make a point of the fact that they used their association with fashionable left wing causes to run cover, just like Harvey Weinstein.  But let’s apply the commissar’s own rules to him. He believes in guilt by mere association and failure to condemn and ostracise with sufficient vigor. I don’t. But his game, his rules. So: has he condemned his associates who were silent, or even tepid or slow? Has condemned the political side they called their own, and groups they belonged to? Nah. Because it’s _different_ when he does it.

299 Comments
  1. C4c

    January 28, 2018
  2. c4c, busy rl

    January 28, 2018
  3. You want to know the minute I became certain that starting up the Science Fiction & Fantasy Creators Guild was the right decision at the right time? When creatures like Camestros, Glyer, Hines and their minions started attacking me over it.

    That was all I needed to be convinced we need to provide creators of sci-fi/fantasy a place to gather and create while remaining free of that insanity.

    January 28, 2018
    • [goes off, finds website]
      https://sffcguild.com/
      What’s this? a nest of wrongthink?!
      Lemme in!!

      😀

      January 28, 2018
    • (Nods) I can’t speak to Hines, but I’ve interacted with Glyer and Camestros. They’re both compulsive liars, and malicious and foolish ones, at that.

      January 28, 2018
    • George Phillies #

      Scribesshade? Would you care to comment on the interaction between the Guild and independent self-publishing via e.g. kindle, smashwords, or Third Millennium?

      January 28, 2018
      • I’m not sure I understand what I am being asked. Could you clarify? Thanks.

        January 28, 2018
        • George Phillies #

          Scribesshade: To become a pro member of the Guild, you must have a professional SF publication, if I followed the web page correctly. Do self-published on kindle (or wherever) novels count as ‘professional’? (I do not have a personal interest in this question,as I had a short story published in Baen’s Universe.)

          January 29, 2018
          • Ah, glad I asked you to clarify because I was thinking something else. To answer your question: As long as you can produce proof of a sale or a royalty check of a SF/F work you qualify as a pro. We will be posting our membership requirements in the next couple of days. But it sounds like you would be in as a pro based on what you’ve told me. Indie published creators are most welcome here.

            January 29, 2018
            • Draven #

              so even my twenty year old work for White Wolf works? (heck, it would have been good enough for membership in that other place too)

              January 29, 2018
              • Is it still selling today? Or within, say, the last 3 years?

                January 29, 2018
                • Draven #

                  It is still available in electronic format, as far as i know.

                  January 29, 2018
                • Draven #

                  I checked, Onyx Path has made everything i did for White Wolf available for purchase in PDF format.

                  January 29, 2018
            • Erm. I am sometimes known to take careful aim at my own overlarge big toe, but here goes anyway…

              I do have a couple of Amazon royalty statements. Not from sales to my (genetic) family, either. But I am nowhere close to being a “pro” by any reasonable definition. Working on it, but definitely not there.

              Thinking on it, you might consider putting a low boundary on “sales”? Not onerous, maybe 100 of a single title? Or at least $250 in royalties earned?

              Feel free to ignore me if you so wish. I’ll probably not join, though, until I am at least up to “L” level – or maybe even “K”.

              January 29, 2018
              • No one gets ignored. But one thing we are trying to do is help mentor writer’s just getting started, so we are not trying to put massive limits on them that makes it harder for them to join. We are discussing a min amount earned per year (again, not a very high amount) in order to renew. Again, nothing has been set yet and won’t be until we post to the website.

                January 29, 2018
                • Richard – It sounds like a reasonable idea. I’ve just one question: One of the biggest faults with SFWA was allowing (even as associates) editors and agents in. That’s a clear conflict of interest, even if you are a writer as well. What’s your position on that?

                  January 29, 2018
                  • Agents are out. They do not qualify as creators in any sense of the word. Small, independent editors not employed by or directly affiliated with a large publisher or one of the Big 5 would be eligible to join.

                    January 29, 2018
              • “Pro” doesn’t mean “does nothing else for a living,” in most writer contexts. Indeed, after the pulps dropped off and until Amazon really started being a thing, the number of people making their entire living off writing was… low.

                The number of writers who are suckered into giving their stuff away, to magazines and journals which make money, is still rather high. (And I don’t include “me and my buddies having a hobby” magazines, but I do include scholars who must publish and then must buy the journal too.)

                Professional writing organizations were never supposed to be about throwing up bars to entry, keeping out anyone who is not a “real writer.” They were supposed to be about protecting writers’ rights, and publicizing unfair publishing practices.

                January 29, 2018
                • Exactly! Which is why I did not want a high monetary or some other arbitrary rule in place to make it difficult for a writer to join the SFFC Guild.

                  January 29, 2018
              • BobtheRegisterredFool #

                Website discusses three tiers. The regular members, the associate/wannabe members, and the retired members. Extremely low levels of documentation requirement for the associate membership makes a certain amount of sense, because they want to mentor newbies and get them up and running.

                Where I grow confused is the question of how it is actually going to work in practice.

                Mentors are likely volunteering a certain amount of time, and the supply, at least at first, is probably only going to go so far. There are a lot of wannabe writers. Is demand going to outstrip supply and require some form of rationing? Is the mentoring going to be effective enough that the mentees are soon going to be ready to be mentoring themselves? Are they going to be ‘ready’, and result in blind leading the blind? How about the apparent wild differences in what methods work for writers?

                Data based decision making is one of today’s fads. I think whole hog big data sounds like a terrible idea for this. Some data is probably needed to verify how the thing works. Who is mentoring, who is being mentored, who is staying in contact, who is publishing. That could be used for mentoring program availability and success rate, which would inform decisions about whether to get an associates to pursue mentorship. I think ‘who naturally works this way’, and how well the program and the mentors work in developing each type sounds interesting, but that may be prohibitively nuts.

                I dunno, I have no clue what the thinking is on their end, and I wind up borrowing trouble often enough.

                January 29, 2018
            • Does it count if it’s a related work, e.g. a reference book on SF&F for librarians?

              January 30, 2018
              • Hmmm. That is a very good question and one I haven’t considered. I would say it would more likely qualify for an Associate as opposed to a Professional – but this is a call I will want to allow the membership committee to make so there will be some consistency.

                January 30, 2018
  4. Been interesting to compare the discourse on both sides regarding this camelflop detenting. One bunch discusses technical factors, then wanders into discussing other aspects of SF and writing and polyticks. The other spews a slurry of snide designed to showcase their cuteness, and after working themselves into a froth, slides into vying for the most virtuous remark.

    Somehow this all seems familiar.

    January 28, 2018
    • Ever so slightly.

      January 29, 2018
    • I agree, Dave et al have gone way over the line.

      First they start with a baseless accusation, then they never showed their proof. and now Dave has moved on to character assassination of the worst sort. Dave has made vile and slanderous accusations about Foz Meadows, Toby, and their marriage.

      Do you know what this looks like to an outsider?

      It looks like Dave et al have invented their own pizzagate conspiracy theory. Yes, his ramblings are that disconnected from reality.

      January 29, 2018
      • This comment is sarcasm, right?

        January 29, 2018
        • @ Wayne

          Nope.

          Although, as I read this post a second time I think Gamergate might be a better analogy. Dave is claiming to be the victim, and is lashing out viciously. That is a classic Gamergater personality trait.

          January 29, 2018
          • Well, then, this is me pointing and laughing at you. —> BWA-HAHAHAHAHA!

            Floppy Cameltoes was a lying, disingenuous troll who was given FAR too much chance to back the ever-lovin FUCK off by the people here and at other places, and NOTHING Dave has said is in the least slanderous – the TRUTH is not slander.

            You talk about proof. As anyone with a tiny bit of sense can tell from the comments here by others, there is proof aplenty available out there. This post was just a condensed outline of all the things that have gone on, not a documentary.

            January 29, 2018
            • BobtheRegisterredFool #

              As one can dig through the archives here, and see how Cam Fel has presented, one can also dig through the archives and see that Nate both fits the pattern of our usual white supremacist troll guests, and is silly.

              Notice here that he seems to feel that Gamergate is a more persuasive slur than Pizzagate. Ha haa.

              January 29, 2018
              • Bob, please link to the comments that demonstrate I am a “white supremacist troll”.

                January 29, 2018
                • BobtheRegisterredFool #

                  There you go again.

                  I said you fit the pattern. You do; the timing, the talking points, and the methods of discussion.

                  You are very much in the mold of Glyer et al. Whose agenda includes support for spreading across America of the laws that enabled the murder of minorities during Segregation, and which now contribute to the greater death rate by violence of minorities.

                  January 29, 2018
                  • @ Bob

                    So you have no evidence, then, and are just joining in the fun of making baseless accusations in an attempt to discredit your chosen target.

                    Cool.

                    January 29, 2018
                    • I think this is appropriate: (Hint, you’re not Arthur, disingenuous concern troll)

                      January 29, 2018
                    • BobtheRegisterredFool #

                      I just now pointed out that your own words are evidence.

                      Unless you are too illiterate to parse my carefully worded statements relating your own words and the words of others many times in the past of this website?

                      This website has maybe a decade or more of daily posts. The relevant posts by others took place over the course of many years. I’m familiar with many of them, having been around, as are most of the regulars.

                      Your demands for citations are, charitably speaking, silly. If you are truly ignorant, no single post would get you up to speed. If I listed twenty, thirty or forty of them, others here would be able to point out oversights. It is better that you dive the archives for yourself. Those patterns are readily apparent to anyone who does so, and anyone who has not speaks from ignorance.

                      January 29, 2018
                    • @ Bob

                      That’s not how things work, Bob.

                      I know what I am; if you want to say I am something else then you have to prove your point. You do not get to foist that responsibility on me.

                      January 29, 2018
                    • BobtheRegisterredFool #

                      Again, you have proven a certain pattern with your words here. You show up on certain topics, bring certain talking points, and are so very certain about them that you do not consider alternate ways they might be seen.

                      That is evident to anyone here, except maybe yourself. That is the statement that I have made about you.

                      I have also made statements about patterns of other posters. That the topics, timing, and methods of discussion are similar to yours. The patterns of these other, in many cases now banned, posters are evident to other regulars here, and anyone who cares to dig into the archives.

                      I further allege that these other posters are white supremacist trolls. Our regulars see that and think “Bob is going off on his hobby horses again”. I am not convinced that I have ever really persuaded the regulars of the theory that certain trolls have a white supremacist agenda. Certainly, when they are banned, the admins do not cite such.

                      January 29, 2018
                    • Harry Russell #

                      @Nate Hoffelder (reply relates to a comment of yours further down from this, as I can’t find a reply button on that one):

                      You wrote “I know what I am; if you want to say I am something else then you have to prove your point. You do not get to foist that responsibility on me.”…

                      Unfortunately for you that is neither true, nor germane (I may be mistaken about the latter), what you _know_ is what you *claim* (& maybe believe yourself) to be, but for the rest of us, your actions & words (other than the claims you make about yourself that are contradictory to those) are what the rest of us have to appraise you by, that’s how human interaction *works*.

                      No one is _obligated_ to believe your assertions just because you make them, & how you make them is going to have an effect on how the percieved veracity what you say is weighted.

                      January 29, 2018
                • No Nate. We’ll make you play it by YOUR side’s rules. Prove you’re not. And because we’re just evil, tangible, visible, verifiable proof of actual DEEDS – not cheap words. Should keep you busy on a tangent for some time. Don’t come back without it.

                  January 29, 2018
                  • No, Dave, it doesn’t work that way. I don’t have to do Bob’s work for him.

                    January 29, 2018
                    • And we don’t have to do yours for you. Thank you for the masterful display of sealioning for those who don’t know what it means.
                      Now run along.

                      January 29, 2018
                    • Sarah, when did I ask anyone to do my work for me? I can’t recall where that happened, and would appreciate any help in correcting that mistake.

                      January 29, 2018
                    • BobtheRegisterredFool #

                      Dude, you haven’t left me any work to do.

                      You’ve pretty much proved the troll part yourself, beyond any doubt.

                      The remaining open question is white supremacist or not. As I’ve hinted, my criteria are based on specific policy positions.

                      You haven’t outlined what your positions on those policies are. If you’d bothered, we could’ve perhaps discussed them civilly and agreed to disagree about whether my criteria are nuts. You did not seem to think that aspect pertinent, and are now suggesting that I can do the work without hearing from you your positions on those specific policies.

                      So I can add you to the list of our trolls that refuse to deny holding white supremacist positions? 😀

                      But seriously, you came here not knowing much about the regulars and thought accusing us of being like GamerGate would move any of us? Ignorant troll. And very like objectively pro white supremacist.

                      January 29, 2018
          • Your side has multiple -time rapists and pedophiles, and you consider Gamergate worse than Pizzagate?

            Yes, please keep displaying what an idiot you are. Maybe you’ll earn the stamp.

            January 29, 2018
          • Projection, much?

            Nice DARVO attempt, though. Thanks for playing!

            January 30, 2018
      • Nate said: “…and now Dave has moved on to character assassination of the worst sort.”

        I disagree sir. For character assassination of the -worst- sort, one must got to the comments at Vile666. This here is weak-sauce.

        Dave has said that Fozzy and Floppy’s alleged domestic arrangement is far too -normal- and puts the lie to the super edgy multi-genderish goulash they pretend to have on line. The pretend goulash resembles a Breenish situation, if you squint.

        Accusations of having a Normal domestic relationship is character assassination now, eh Nate? Maybe on the Left. That’s the point. Get it?

        As to the other thing, the New Lefty Rule says that if you’re not out there actively making a fuss about racism, you’re a Raaaaacist! So, where’s the fuss about the Breendogle on the Left? If you’re not making a fuss, you’re a Breenie!

        Illustrates the stupidity of that rule rather nicely, I think.

        January 29, 2018
        • Phantom, Dave has implied that Foz and Toby Meadows are engaging in the same activities as MZB was infamous for.

          There’s your vile slander.

          As for your what-about-isms, they are irrelevant to Dave’s post above. (In fact, I don’t even recognize one of the references – can you explain to this outsider what a Breendoggle is?)

          January 29, 2018
          • Googling has revealed that Breendoggle refers to MZB’s husband. Okay, now it makes sense.

            January 29, 2018
            • BobtheRegisterredFool #

              Nate, that right there is why many of us feel comfortable classifying your demands for proof as stemming from stupidity or laziness or malice on your part.

              Many of us read the Breendoggle letter years ago, as well as some of the other information on Breen. Which does not present MZB or her female adult lover in good light.

              The information related to the allegations about Breen and MZB is pretty central to any real discussion of the matter. Because we have discussed it extensively in the past, it is pretty much required background for discussing how the earlier discussion might shape the possibilities that come to mind.

              Haven’t read Breendoggle letter, haven’t read the document collection put up by one of the gentlemen whose stepson Breen molested, and you sound like someone wanting to take an upper division Electrical Engineering class when your highest level of mathematical attainment isn’t even Trig. Go catch up, and try again later.

              January 29, 2018
              • I’m seeing the fact that their side is so cripplingly uninformed on the whole MZB and Breen expose as further proof that it was not something they felt proper or necessary to find out about, or read up on, or inform themselves about because to do so would allow in that we were right about MZB and Breen – and that the monsters are indeed on their side.

                They screech about ‘separating the work from the author’ but refuse to do that for any authors or works on our side. That special distinction is, yet again, obviously only for the Leftist Anointed.

                Further, it should not escape anyone here that Nate focused only on Breen – and continued to ignore MZB being not only complicit in the rapes and abuse, as was her ‘girlfriend’, but herself physically and sexually abusive to her own children.

                Also, Nate’s and Jayne’s comments further display that they are happy to keep ignoring that – despite repeated comments showing exactly this – the similarity to the Bradley/Breen marriage is that the marriage looks like a cover, and the cover is to hide how boringly normal the couple in question might be.

                They’re the ones focusing on the fact that Bradley and Breen were enthusiastic pedophiles and smudging that over to the Meadows. Not us.

                January 29, 2018
                • BobtheRegisterredFool #

                  I’m seeing at least one statement by Nate that seems to be recognition that Marion Bradley did wrong. ‘activities as MZB was infamous for’.

                  January 29, 2018
                  • Then he’s outright lying. To know about the MZB activities is to know about Breen’s IF the knowledge is reading about the whole revelations and documentation about the Breen-Bradley relationship, as opposed to reading about the reactions other people have had when this all came to light. The adults covered up the abuse, this was brought out during Breen’s trial, and Bradley’s girlfriend tried to discredit Moira or excuse herself for ‘not believing’ by claiming that Moira told her that she’d been put in a ritual where she was witness to murders of an adult and an infant, and was fed ‘strange meat’ and was told ‘the meat is your baby brother’s.’

                    (Moira herself does not cite this in her own testimonies, so it’s considered false by all around. Personally I found it very very disturbing that Bradley’s lover had such a detailed description of this.)

                    I repeat, they’re focusing on something Dave saw a surface similarity about, and trying to spin it that he is accusing them. Don’t let them distract!

                    January 29, 2018
                • Shadow : They screech about ‘separating the work from the author’ but refuse to do that for any authors or works on our side. That special distinction is, yet again, obviously only for the Leftist Anointed.

                  This.

                  January 29, 2018
                  • Well yeah. They have to do that because if they didn’t their side as SO MUCH MORE to worry about. They’re condemning authors like Mark Twain, but when one objectively looks at their side, they are covering for their monsters (yet again.)

                    The idiot above is comparing us to Gamergate … and Gamergate outed several of their side, the Antis, as sex offenders – y’know, the male feminist allies, and so on? It’s getting to the point that when someone declares themself a Male Feminist, one wonders ‘how many women have been your victims?’

                    (another couple of links will follow)

                    January 29, 2018
                • “They’re the ones focusing on the fact that Bradley and Breen were enthusiastic pedophiles and smudging that over to the Meadows. Not us.” THIS!

                  January 30, 2018
          • Sir, I maintain that I have seen worse on Vile666, and for less reason. You are welcome to try to prove me wrong.

            I expect copious links and notes, which I will roundly ignore in favor of pointing, laughing and moving the goalposts. Its sea lion polo day today, and you get to be the ball.

            January 29, 2018
          • You must really hate Foz and Camel-wossname, Nate.

            Why else would you keep repeating the “they are just like MZB & co?” attack on Mr. Freer.

            Repetition solidifies an idea, no matter how baseless, in folk’s minds.

            You could’ve left it where Dave Freer did, with the notion that the couple appear to be faking a faddish gender-identity ala Elizabeth Warren for fun and profit. But no, you HAD to go for the long-shot, that the two are engaged in a twisted Breen-like fake marriage, for who-knows what reason.

            Over, and over and over again, here, and God knows where else.

            Instead of a one-off that everyone forgets, you’ve cemented it into everyone’s minds, all to – just maybe – hurt a minority writer, struggling to support his family.

            What a rotten thing to do.

            January 30, 2018
      • Matthew #

        ((blinks))

        Oh dear lord you’re serious.

        BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

        January 29, 2018
      • Nate – have you applied for a job recently? What does HR do before they call you in. As I said there are several far more unpleasant consequences that could come Fieldsy’s way (and yes, actually I am shielding him and his family by using a somewhat obscure nickname). Keep pushing Nate. Irritate me enough and I’ll put it all up in a nice easy to find and read form for HR, including the times and volume of his posting. And I’ll put your name on it, because you’re the one demanding it, so Fieldsy can know exactly who to blame for his future predicament. I don’t push, Nate. Get that?

        Now stop being quite so hysterical and try a little logic and calm. The only thing ‘blowing this up’ – is you and your little friends. All your attacks and pointing and shrieking and demanding have achieved is exactly the worst thing for Fieldsy and his partner. You’re not going to get anywhere with your usual tantrums. I don’t push.

        You started with wrong premise, despite all the evidence, because you don’t want to believe it. I’m not actually interested in making a huge …gate, but I don’t get pushed and bullied. Most of us don’t care about Fieldsy. Fieldsy is a six-second wonder, and would have disappeared off the horizon long since- except you keep calling us liars and worse to try and get us to cave. We don’t care about Fieldsy, one way or the other – but we do care about that. So: choose. You’re not going to get it your way, no matter how you and little friends scream and tell the whole supermarket you’re having a tanty. What are you going to do? Go on screaming and kicking your heels or go away?

        January 29, 2018
        • “Most of us don’t care about Fieldsy.”

          Yeah, your claim not to care rings hollow when made in the comment section of a post devoted to smearing a man because you think he is also a blogger you hate.

          Please do post the evidence that connects Foz and Toby Meadows to that blogger. I dare you. I would love to see it.

          January 29, 2018
          • (Dryly) Nate, I have made thousands of posts. How much I care about Fieldsy can be accurately calculated as the number about him over the rest. Go on Nate, back your sea-lioning up with numbers. But you won’t because that’d show you’re talking nonsense again.

            It cannot be undone once it’s done, Nate. Right or wrong it’s what HR WILL find. (I notice you didn’t say anything about finding a job or knowing how it happens). You would ‘love’ to see it, but I doubt if they would. So far I’m still considering that. Keep pushing, Nate. You’re an idiot, though – even without the IP data, there is one hell of a shortage of Australian Academics with a strong background in both philosophy (choosing a greek bit that oddly Toby wrote about and very few non-philosophers would even recognize) and maths (not a common combination) who have a reason and motive to have a fascination with sf Fandom and the Hugo (for which his wife was in the nearing/ running for some time. She’ll likely get one, IMO) and who happened to be in the UK in Aberdeen at the right time -and return to Australia at the right time (he posted as ‘Camestros’ about that return). YOU Compile a list of possible alternatives, Nate, that fill all of those criteria. You post those. Oh and get on with proving you’re not a white racist. We’re waiting. That was supposed to arrive before you posted again. Enjoy.

            January 29, 2018
            • Dave Freer said: “…the Hugo (for which his wife was in the nearing/ running for some time. She’ll likely get one, IMO)”

              We are probably guaranteeing that right now. Couple more days of this, and she will get the Hugo for reproducing the first five pages of the Sydney phone book. ~:D

              January 29, 2018
              • And she’ll add VASTLY to its value with that 😀

                January 30, 2018
            • In the language of my poker buddies, I call.

              P.S. I still can’t get over the fact you blithely slandered someone you “don’t care about”. That you were so casually cruel boggles the mind.

              January 29, 2018
              • Pull the other one! It ain’t slander when it’s the truth!

                January 29, 2018
              • Nate, my blog, my rules. You want to play here, sonny, you’ll do it according to the rules I set. And I don’t push Nate. I’ll do what I choose, when I choose. I notice you’re too much of a gutless coward to take the challenges to prove it COULD be anyone else. It’s not hard. There are three possible reasons for that – because you’re too lazy, incompetent or just can’t. Well, I am not letting you sea-lion out of it. You’ve yet to answer single question- because all them leave you dead in the water.

                As for ‘blithely slandered’ my broad blue arse. You mean I didn’t pretend the emperor’s new clothes were wonderful – because they’re your chosen little group of darlings. I only did for them what I’d do for my own kids if they were ever that dumb. I have news for you, Nate. I was really very kind. I was an NCO and there was precious little I hadn’t learned about ripping someone a new one that I hadn’t learned growing up with commercial fisherman. My only education came later when I was researcher – from fishwives – women who worked in fish factories. If I ever set out to slander someone there’d be no maybe about it, and it would probably reduce you a quivering jelly of pathetic whining outrage. Oh wait. That’s you on the most trivial comment.

                So: if you can’t post full no-bullshit replies to every question everyone asks or has asked, you’ve had your chance – you’re banned. If you post full replies, you can post. But don’t post another single piece of sea-lion bullshit.

                January 29, 2018
                • Looking from the latest two comments from the other trolls, we’re working with the unsurprising hydra tactic here.

                  No, they’re not learning. They’re hoping to score ‘points’ by ticking off pretty much everything on the Internet Argument Checklist AND the SJW Attack Sequence so they can victory parade.

                  They’re at 4. Reject and Transform. and 5. Press for Surrender.

                  January 29, 2018
                  • Yep. Except we don’t care anymore. They really don’t get it. “never leave a man nothing left to lose you. He’ll kill you.” And a woman will do it twice as hard, with malice, and enjoy it.

                    January 29, 2018
                    • Yes, well… I think they’re hoping for that. Then they’ll have their convenient martyr ‘from the puppies’ evil hands’ … except as I said, all we really have to do is wait and if there is something horrible like a crime, it’ll eventually come to light – like all those male feminist Anti-Gamergaters who have been convicted of various crimes, including multiple rapes.

                      I prefer the very brief entertainment of mocking what they clearly find more scandalous (a perfectly mundane existence), since I’m working on a glossary at the moment.

                      January 29, 2018
                    • meh. in this case my killing consists of telling them to piss up a rope and ignoring them otherwise.

                      January 29, 2018
                    • b^_^b Ignoring them is like depriving them of oxygen. After all, we are so evil and thoughtlessly cruel!

                      January 29, 2018
                • Allen Hunter #

                  I love Dave’s comment what an attack means in the real world:
                  “I was an NCO and there was precious little I hadn’t learned about ripping someone a new one that I hadn’t learned growing up with commercial fisherman. My only education came later when I was researcher – from fishwives – women who worked in fish factories.”
                  This contrasts so well with the apparent conviction that the worst option was living a boring mundane existance as a hetero married couple, probably in a 3 bedroom suburban split level. What he’ll is this that 95+% of the world can barely dream of…

                  January 30, 2018
        • Kathodus #

          Dave Freer
          “As I said there are several far more unpleasant consequences that could come Fieldsy’s way (and yes, actually I am shielding him and his family by using a somewhat obscure nickname). Keep pushing Nate. Irritate me enough and I’ll put it all up in a nice easy to find and read form for HR, including the times and volume of his posting.”

          Please, reach deep into that secret place where Trump stores his research into Obama’s birth certificate and pull out this damning proof. Rip the bandaid off all at once. Show the world your credibility, your honor. Stop letting this fester, stop letting rumors multiply. We all know the essence of your character. Prove it now. Prove your fans right. Prove the rest of us wrong.

          January 30, 2018
          • Toddy, you lickspittle little troll – I have a lovely collection of YOUR worst lapses – when you were torch-carrying in the puppy-kicker jackal-club. It’s not much use talking to you about employment or decency. But here’s your challenge Todd -. Unless you’re too useless, which I pretty certain you are. You do this and I’ll match you… IF you come up with set possible alternatives, who fit in ALL of the following subsets, all from Camestros statements or obvious correlaries (such as for example spending thousands of hours of what has to be work time at times on fandom, sf, hugos, basically requires that the person should be interested in the same) Subset 1) Be an Australian Academic working in academia. 2)From that subset demonstrate a respectable working knowledge and use of Maths, AND Philosophy. 3)Of that now relatively small sample be an ardent follower (or have good reason to be an ardent follower) of sf/fantasy fandom particularly the Hugos – a good reason for example might be having your wife as potential winner. 4) Of that subset – which is by now very small if not down to one — have been in the UK (in Aberdeen) just when the record shows that Toby was and 5)Of that subset having moved back just when both Toby did and Camestros posted about doing. And 6)As both parties claim not to know or have met each other, within the tiny tiny world academics in the same arena, and indeed town, and fandom which is not huge in Oz – for some reason, to never to have attended the same faculty meeting, co-operated on papers, or have attended the same conferences. Come up with a list – perfectly possible to try and do, requiring no genius, just legwork and patience – the records are all public – and I’ll take you seriously. But you won’t. Because you’re a pathetic little troll. Unless you produce that list, you’re banned.

            January 30, 2018
            • Micael Gustavsson #

              The really weak Linköping in the argument above is the Idea that Camestros Felapton is a proffessional accademic. Having read some university course and having a hobby interest in philosophy is not the same as having a degree or working in accademy

              January 30, 2018
              • So let’s get this straight Gustavsson -You’re saying ‘Camestros is a liar, his own statements and his claims of professionalism and knowledge of the standards required for statistical data to be released to researchers were all lies. His ability with maths that we trumpeted to the skies when he was trying to refute the political bias I showed in Hugo awards was in fact non-existant – that of some amateur hobbyist who did a university course somewhere. We puppy-kickers all lied when we claimed his authority in saying it was a valid refutation (it was crap, but Camestros was the best you had).’ That’s the choice. Either he’s a liar and everything he did near worthless, or he is an academic, working in academia. You can’t have the one that suits your narrative at the moment and also have the other when suits. Choose. Run the same excercise with other academis without the phil, modifier, teaching in Aberdeen and Brizzy and you get no further. And of course an ardent fan living oddly always in the same place never met the author. You haven’t tried the excercise or come up with an alternate – because you can’t. Give us a person – or a short list – with the reasons to prove that they could be ‘camestros’ or ‘camestros’ and you might be slightly more plausible. At the moment , like Fieldsy, you’re slithering and sliming and sliding.

                January 30, 2018
                • Micael Gustavsson #

                  I dont think you necessary have to work in accademia to be good at statistics or numbers. If you think he has to be more than a hobbyist, he could very well work with that sort of thing at a tech company or something. Numbers and calculations are either true or false, whether the person presenting them work in accademia or not.

                  January 31, 2018
                  • Unfortunately, that’s not the level he claimed expertise at, and experience with. And he was trying his slithering with stats, not clear simple numbers, and doing so in as best a way to obfusticate. So: either he’s a liar and all the enormous credit and support he was given was in fact wrongly ascribed and should be disregarded or he is exactly what he reads like. Choose one, you can’t have both, or the one that suits you when it suits you. Also, dear God, have you READ fieldsy? He couldn’t hold down a job in a tech office for a week, he sneers at the such people, and how in heaven’s name do you produce such volume and hold down a real job? I’m sorry, but only academia – in the areas that are principally undergrad teaching with low levels of prep and marking (and yes, I know a lot of Uni people. Some do work hard… others don’t. It depends a lot on the faculty and position.)

                    Look, I was ‘blamed’ for this – because I warned Fieldsy. I did so in such a fashion as to hopefully leave him space to say Ok game’s over, I have my job and family to consider. His reaction, when the inevitable happened was therefore _I_ must have told Lou – because no one else could possibly have reached that conclusion. Now, I have explained very clearly how absolutely simple, straightforward and logical my process was. I have asked at least a half-dozen of you to see if, following that process (which is as obvious and logical and bloody elementary as possible) you COULD derive anyone else. The process I used was one anyone of normal intelligence could derive, and could follow. It wouldn’t even take you more than a few hours, because the elimination process is so fast. Not one of you tested it – because all of you know that’s answer you get from it. You may not like my answer, you may quibble over trivia, but not one of you has come up with a better system or an alternate, plausible answer. And not one of you have a single solitary reason why any of 50 people (Fieldsy slimed a lot of people) could not have thought this out and followed this or a similar process. Answer that question before you sea-lion any further.

                    January 31, 2018
                    • Micael Gustavsson #

                      My impression from Camestros Felapton blog about his or her real identity. It is based on memory, so I may misremember, or have misunderstood some things.

                      He or she is british of irish descent living in Australia for many years. He/she works midlevel at a multinational company, tech or not. His/her contact with fandom is mostly online, and he/she is not known in local meatspace fandom (and coworkers propably dont know about his interst in fandom).

                      That is the guess I would have come up with if you asked me some weeks ago, and I still stand by that as a good guess from things I have read on his/her blogg. It may of course all be untrue, and I may misremember things, but the starting point that he/she have to work in the accademe and have to be connected to fandom in a public way seems to me unfounded.

                      January 31, 2018
                    • Firstly midlevel multinational corporates (that conveniently transfer their staff between the right places in the UK and Australia, and don’t actually mind if their staff spend their work hours shit-posting) don’t have any plausible reason to know the procedures and legal requirement University researchers follow with handling confidential data – to name just one example. So either he’s a liar or has reason to know. And that’s just one example off the back of my head. My point is his knowledge, his time usage, his language, his mannerisms, his behavior, his choice of pseudonym (one Toby wrote about) were all logically consistent with someone in Academia, in fairly narrow branch of the arts. I am certain – because when was stupid enough to attack Larry Correia folk commented, that I wasn’t the only one to reach my conclusion. And that is the point you’re missing Micael. I know he’s dodging around now. ‘oh when I talked about going to Australia it was a joke ha ha ha… BUT these are post facto responses. What I am talking about was that I researched it ages ago, called him ‘Fieldsy ages ago, and anyone could have followed the same process since – whether you agree with the outcome or not. These attacks on me are because it HAS to be my theory and I set out to hurt him and his family. No one else COULD possibly arrive at that end point. Well, as I have demonstrated, almost anyone could. And honestly IF I was setting out to hurt the foolish twit 1)Why would I not have done so when he was being the ‘math expert’ supporting the puppy kickers? 2)Or when he attacked good friends of mine? 3)Or if for some bizarre reason you believe that the guy willing to take on all the big names in the Puppy kicking establishment that I was scared of this little fellow, that I would tell some arb guy I barely know? Surely logic says, IF it were my decision to do so I’d tell someone who would really hurt him? Larry, Brad, Sarah all have far bigger audiences. If I really wanted serious harm Vox Day would have been delighted to be told.

                      I think the thing that annoys me most about this witchhunt Hinesy ginned up is the complete lack of logic involved with the mob that has followed him. Couldn’t you find something plausible?

                      January 31, 2018
      • Well, you see, we have the advantage of knowing Dave. For years. Decades, now that I think about it. We may have trouble stopping laughing long enough to get pissed about the name calling, but we are pissed. Because Dave has a long solid history of reliability–not perfection–but we can depend on his honesty and integrity.

        You? I haven’t a clue who you are . . . but I’m figuring out _what_ you are pretty quick.

        And . . . Ewww!

        January 30, 2018
  5. adventuresfantastic #

    “He seems a damn straight shooter, and a fine fellow that I’d like as a brother in what I’ve seen since.”

    Dave,

    I had to stop reading and comment when I got to this part. I’ve known Lou for over a decade. We met through his wife, who was one of my students. (Lou and I had actually been at the same convention a few months before but hadn’t met then.) Lou is one of the few people I would willingly share a hotel room with at a con, and I’ve lost track of the number of times we’ve been roommates. If he refuses to names his sources, it’s because he’s one of the few newspaper men left who still has journalistic integrity. Your assessment of him is spot on. I’m proud to call him my friend.

    Now to finish reading the post…

    January 28, 2018
    • 🙂 Good. We need people like that in sf.

      January 29, 2018
  6. Okay so here’s the question: Just which famous sf/fantasy writer and fan ‘marriage for cover’ of a left wing feminist lesbian/bi and her homosexual husband springs immediately to your mind?

    Yeah, mine too. And I actually said it. And that was wicked wrong-think. Jim Hines wants you to ostracise me for. Because if I don’t say it ABSOLUTELY no one will think it. /s

    My point was that IF their relationship is a front – just one real possibility (and personally I don’t care what they do or don’t do in bed) they had to be aware that this would spring to people’s minds. That’s exactly what I said.

    MZB and Breen, if that is the case, there are very good reasons to not draw attention to it.

    I have no idea which of these relationship scenarios is correct. But one is. And none of them are things I could see them wanting to draw attention to. People are bound to think precisely what I thought as a possibility. No amount of declaring it wrongthink is going change that. The fact that MZB and Breen were also child abusers and used their left-wing credentials to shield themselves, much like Harvey Weinstein, has to occur to people, no matter if the new version would never dream of it – or not. It doesn’t help that Fieldsy went on the offensive against the book about one of MZB and Breen’s child victims, but that may just have been him being stupid, again.

    I think they’re rather upset that we noticed anything at all, so of course what they had to do was leap and shriek and DARVO. We noticed a similarity in the relationships, and noted that ‘there are very good reasons to not draw attention to it’. Hines leaped to the conclusion ‘THEY THINK THE MEADOWS ARE CHILD MOLESTERS’ – ignoring the other reasons actually brought up:

    3) His efforts started by attacking the sad puppies when his wife was one of the beneficiaries of them being attacked and eliminated. Now, I am of the kind who believes a man ought to support his wife’s work and ambitions – but if he did so in under his own name that would have two negative consequences a)People would see he had vested interest and weigh what he said in that light. b)It shone a light on his partner’s ‘gender-queer’ credentials, that she would be damaged by.

    4) As in (3b) Foz is very careful not to talk much about the fact that for a ‘gender-queer’ leading author – she’s quite vanilla, Married, sharing the same name, being supported by and moving with her husband. So: either she’s the Rachael Dolezal of ‘gender-queer’ or he’s a straight man who tolerates her less-than-traditional interpretation of marriage… or he’s also, shall we say ‘genderqueer’ and using marriage as front. As that is a very reminiscent description of the situation between…

    Frankly? I think the latter examples are more scary to a viler than… well, anything else in the world. That gets them possibly excommunicated from the tribe.

    January 28, 2018
    • Joe in PNG #

      So, they’re not sticking to the “Tim Meadows =/= Cameltoes” line then?

      January 28, 2018
      • I think they were hoping that screeching, point and leaping/ DARVOing at the imagined accusation (which was never made, mind) was going to be enough to distract.

        These are the people who routinely accuse other people of being “white supremacist Nazi misogynist homo and transphonbes’ without proof, and now are demanding proof of something THEY want to claim was outright accused.

        January 28, 2018
        • Joe in PNG #

          If one is trying to deflect attention from oneself, then screeching, pointing, and leaping tend to accomplish the opposite.
          I guess that it makes sense to Camelfire E. Floppyton, Super Genus.

          January 29, 2018
          • Alternately, if they’re hoping to get their fellow travelers to jump on us, maybe their side will forget the whole ‘trans-racial but not race’ thing, if that’s what they’re hoping to distract from.

            January 29, 2018
          • Joe – as an example of super-genius Floppy has trouble thinking from A to B let alone extending logic into A to C. Look, I climb, I dive. I’m still alive after doing this stuff for close on half a century. That means I have to think ahead, look at possible scenarios, work out what to do before I do it. To me his actions throughout have been poorly thought-out, and under stress – he fell apart and did the stupidest, panic inspired stuff possible. You know, he’s an annoying little blow-fly but I’ve basically never given him any advice I wouldn’t to my own kids. Get out of this, stop this, don’t think you’re cleverer than anyone else – because you’re not. There is always someone smarter. And if you are caught, take your medicine like a man, admit you were an idiot, apologize… people may slap you around for a bit, but they respect that. Liars – who respects them?

            January 29, 2018
            • I think he was referring to the Roadrunner and Coyote comics where the Coyote is Wile E. Coyote, Super Genius. And comes up with all these elaborate traps (All parts ordered from Acme) for the road runner that just wind up putting him in traction, repeatedly.

              January 29, 2018
              • *himself in traction (fingers got ahead of themselves.)

                January 29, 2018
              • Joe in PNG #

                Yep.

                January 29, 2018
        • Oh they don’t need no steekin’ evidence to abuse and smear. That’s for little people. It’s _different_ when they do it…

          January 29, 2018
          • That’s why I laughed and laughed and laughed when Whiny Chiney was DEMANDING answers and PROOF from Lou. Only their side thinks they have any credibility left.

            On that note, it’d been utterly DELIGHTFUL to see people smack down reporters for being unprofessional. The questions they ask are more befitting of tabloids or the gossip sections of the paper, or scurrilous editorials.

            January 29, 2018
    • Hines is of the ‘skim until offended and then scream blue murder’ variety of SJW. He would ALWAYS take the worst possible interpretation, because that’s what he wants.

      January 29, 2018
      • Luke #

        What do you expect from someone who became (semi)famous by mocking female poses and clothing on fantasy/sci-fi paperback covers?

        January 29, 2018
      • We, on the other hand, don’t have to take the worst possible interpretation. If there is any of that in existence, we have but to wait, and it gets exposed.

        Also wow, that list doesn’t just include sexual predators, but someone who was making and arrested for making bomb threats against Jewish community centers, and and arms trafficker.

        VBEG. Yes, these are the people claiming to be SO MUCH MORE MORAL than us.

        January 29, 2018
  7. This day is called the feast of Crispian:
    He that outlives this day, and comes safe home,
    Will stand a tip-toe when the day is named,
    And rouse him at the name of Crispian.
    He that shall live this day, and see old age,
    Will yearly on the vigil feast his neighbours,
    And say ‘To-morrow is Saint Crispian:’
    Then will he strip his sleeve and show his scars.
    And say ‘These wounds I had on Crispin’s day.’
    Old men forget: yet all shall be forgot,
    But he’ll remember with advantages
    What feats he did that day: then shall our names.
    Familiar in his mouth as household words
    Harry the king, Bedford and Exeter,
    Warwick and Talbot, Salisbury and Gloucester,
    Be in their flowing cups freshly remember’d.
    This story shall the good man teach his son;
    And Crispin Crispian shall ne’er go by,
    From this day to the ending of the world,
    But we in it shall be remember’d;
    We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
    For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
    Shall be my brother; be he ne’er so vile,
    This day shall gentle his condition:
    And gentlemen in England now a-bed
    Shall think themselves accursed they were not here,
    And hold their manhoods cheap whiles any speaks
    That fought with us upon Saint Crispin’s day.

    You’re a good man, Dave. I’m glad that if I’m here, it’s here with you.

    January 28, 2018
    • I love that poem. And yes, it’s been worth the fire to see who was dross and who was true steel to the core.

      January 29, 2018
      • snelson134 #

        This is the best visualization I’ve found:

        January 29, 2018
        • Yep. Olivier’s version is not bad, but as far as catching a sense of what it might have been like at the time? Nailed it.

          January 29, 2018
        • My mother was not a movie-goer. Hardly ever watched TV, even. Imagine my amazement when she made the 90 mile trip down to Tucson and dragged me off to see this one. More than worth it.

          I think the difference between Branagh and Olivier was that Branagh did a much better job of capturing the “earthiness” of the English royalty in those times.

          January 29, 2018
    • Amen.

      January 29, 2018
  8. I said it last year: there’s always a witch-burning happening in SF/F somewhere. How else are the Social Justice Zealots going to virtue-signal to each other that they’re on the Right Side of History? They simply must have enemies against which to battle. And if no enemies readily present themselves, the Social Justice Zealots will invent enemies.

    They love going after intellectuals who abide Orwell’s admonition: we have now reached a depth at which restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men. There’s a nice, reasonable professor at the University of Toronto currently being Literally Hitler’d — because of his efforts to speak plain English to the commissars of Cultural Marxism.

    Dave Freer — an estimable man, who has lived an estimable life — is the latest genre object of progressive rage. Because he can put 1 and 1 together, to make 2. Just like Lou Antonelli. Just like a lot of people. There’s nothing diabolically unique about Dave’s statements. Yet the Cultural Marxists erupt with cries of foul play.

    All too typical.

    January 28, 2018
    • I find endlessly funny still that they decided to ignore that we just noted the similarity to the MZB/Breen relationship, then moved on to more likely scenarios to theorize on.

      But nope, they’re going to focus on the fact that it occurred to us at all.

      That the people who endlessly sling the slurs ‘white supremacist, misogynist, homo and transphobe, Nazis’ are suddenly panicking about a vague resemblance to the MZB/Breen relationship – and screaming about implied defamation or something – is hugely hypocritical – well, more like they’re afraid that their attempts at poo flinging and having something stick is now being turned against them. After all, they don’t mind having the ability to fling those words casually, frequently and without proof… but when we notice a strong resemblance to two different sets of couples… they freak out.

      Allow me to reiterate: They who don’t have an issue with defaming other people, especially those who aren’t hardcore vileprogs- with similar life-and-career destroying descriptions, like ‘Nazi’ or ‘misogynist’, ‘transphobe’ ‘racist’ ‘homophobe’ ‘bigot’ or ‘white supremacist’

      but flip out at the 1) possibility that the marriage is a front 2) fake 3)reminds us of a different pair who used 1 and 2 for HORRIBLE REASONS.

      They focus on the one thing they can scream about – because for the rest of us, really, a fake marriage or one that is a front is at best, a *shrug*; at worst “wonder why?” quickly followed with a ‘meh’. But those two things might not be so easily dismissed on their side.

      If they married because they got along well and not necessarily because of love, that’s just as valid a reason to marry… and not really something horribly scandalous. Sheesh.

      But see, we’re not the side that has a problem with previous precedents.

      It doesn’t help that Fieldsy went on the offensive against the book about one of MZB and Breen’s child victims, but that may just have been him being stupid, again.

      And that Cameltoe attacks Moira’s book just makes it so much worse. After all, previous precedents.

      I have no idea which of these relationship scenarios is correct. But one is. And none of them are things I could see them wanting to draw attention to. People are bound to think precisely what I thought as a possibility. No amount of declaring it wrongthink is going change that. The fact that MZB and Breen were also child abusers and used their left-wing credentials to shield themselves, much like Harvey Weinstein, has to occur to people, no matter if the new version would never dream of it – or not.

      Ultimately, this is what they deem was our sin. How dare we think they’re evil – only they’re allowed to smear and defame ‘Puppies’ – because magical leftist alignment grants them special privileges over the lesser beings (anyone who isn’t Left-aligned basically); the proles have refused to stay on the mental cotton fields, they must be punished! The Pups said something that is true and horribly damaging to The Members Of Our Cause(TM) – but we can’t say what it is specifically because then it would HURT THEM! How dare the Puppies notice and worse, SPEAK about the inconsistencies!!!!1

      Heck, they want us to be guilty of the same thing they regularly do: accuse and have no proof.

      I said it last year: there’s always a witch-burning happening in SF/F somewhere. How else are the Social Justice Zealots going to virtue-signal to each other that they’re on the Right Side of History? They simply must have enemies against which to battle. And if no enemies readily present themselves, the Social Justice Zealots will invent enemies.

      Indeed, to the Leftists, the scariest thing is to be the next target, because then you’re excommunicated from their Tribe, and all that it entails.

      I still maintain that the only reason why Weinstein is even getting attention now is because he did something that the Establishment Left is currently declaring unforgivable. I don’t think that the ‘unforgivable act/s’ were sexual predation or taking advantage of his power of any sort (else they’d condemn Bill Clinton, except he’s still on their side.) It could have been as stupid as the plans for a Weinstein directed / produced Holocaust docomovie (given the screaming about Jerusalem, this would not surprise me at all) – whatever the cause, right now he lost their protection. But until he did, he was unassailable.

      And it’s pretty much a warning to everyone on the Left: “don’t step out of line, or you’re next to be destroyed. If you serve us well, your crimes, bad behaviour and depravities will be ignored.”

      I observe that MZB and Breen never lost the protection of the vile Leftists who still refuse to acknowledge the harm those two did – the fact that they attack Moira’s book and essay prove that – yet somehow we’re supposed to believe they are the virtuous pro-women ‘Listen and Believe’ adherents here?

      The fact that they all spoke up in defense of transgender Sarah Butts, the self-described and self-proving pedophile and dismissed ‘her’ actions with ‘her’ empty ‘I was a teenage edgelord’ whitewashing only brings even more raised eyebrows.

      Hines’ getting upset and drawing more attention to that brief notice is what’s doing damage – not the fact that we noticed at all and dared to voice that notice. What’s he trying to distract from? Because let’s be honest here – pedophilia bothers our side of the fence; not theirs – else Chip Delany would have been long ago condemned for his support of NAMBLA.

      Who’s he really trying to distract, as well? As I said above, being outed as a fake and losing membership to the Lefty Tribe, and worse, being removed from the pedestal of Special Minority, is far scarier to the Left than us. Trying to gin up some DARVO and distract from that is certainly a possibility – because we are not the real threat. (We’d be happy if they just all left us all alone, and let us create, write, discuss and gather happily and peacefully and they went off to do their own thing.)

      After all, we have previous precedents they set by which to understand their screaming and actions.

      SJWS always lie… and double down.

      January 29, 2018
      • Yep. They always lie, always double down. And because the end justifies the means for them, and it’s all about power, none of the issues and minorities they raise a screech about matter to them. They use them because they’re useful. Yet they all kept silent when the pawns were abused by Harvey Weinstein. Indeed, they procured for him – because he was a major donor and a major Hollywood producer, providing their propaganda. They’ve offered not a word, not one word, of contrition over what their side enabled in Breen and MZB. Not a word of sympathy for the victims. And as you say, to them NAMBLA supporters are cool. So for them to preach morality is just another of their lies-for-power.

        January 29, 2018
        • The occasional condemnation is still rather weak as well; and yes, I remember when the discussions on this were ongoing – there was a lot of the ‘but we have to separate the works from the author!’ and such.

          Nope. They’re unwilling to give that to Poe, Heinlein, Twain and the rest. The fact that they don’t want to but want to give that excuse to Breen and Bradley tells me what they find by their metrics ‘somewhat acceptable.’ And it’s reprehensible, their display of utter hypocrisy.

          January 29, 2018
      • And that’s the amazing thing. If he/they hadn’t gone about it… I wouldn’t have even noticed it. While I am ‘about’ here, I am admittedly merely on the periphery and not Truly Affected by.. well, much. And yet, even before the comparison name was stated here, I managed to think “Oh, that thing that shares more than a couple letters with ‘boondoggle’?” And then.. there it is. Ox figure this out.

        To allude to Lehrer, someone in need of a shelter-half (or two) had to pick up the entrenching tool inside. Ox figure this out, too.

        Genius(es) ought to be able to at least outsmart an ox.

        January 29, 2018
        • s/inside/instead/ Typos with hooves, aye.

          January 29, 2018
      • Shadowdancer said: “Ultimately, this is what they deem was our sin. How dare we think they’re evil – only they’re allowed to smear and defame ‘Puppies’ – because magical leftist alignment grants them special privileges over the lesser beings…”

        Yes. How dare we object. They are the good ones, we are the bad ones. It has been scientifically proven.

        Kinda makes me want to object LOUDER, know what I mean? ~:D

        Come and get me, Hinesy. I’m sure there’s something I’ve written on my blog since 2002 that’ll be simply scandalous. If you can’t come up with anything on your own, I’ll write something special just for you:

        Maybe I could compare the Breen situation to the current Premiere of Ontario. There are similarities that could be spoken of.

        The Premiere is a gay woman, and something most people in Ontario don’t know is that she “discovered” she was gay after she’d been married for 13 years and had three -little- kids. Long story short, hubby moved into the basement and New Girlfriend moved into the upstairs, and they all rowed along together. Its a New Age love story, right?

        Except for the three little kids. That’s a matter of record, by the way. There’s a whole book about what happened to the three little kids. You can get it on Amazon. No Breen-like accusations I hasten to say, but the kids suffered none the less. They’re not included in the Happily Ever After, even now.

        I can hear Hines and Floppy shrieking FASCIST!!! already. How dare I object, right? It’s all about the gayness, right? That’s as far as any of them will read.

        But the rest of you know what I’m going to say next. When you’re married, and you have three little kids, you don’t get to do what you want. You get to do what’s BEST FOR THE KIDS AND THE HUSBAND. You gave your word. You get to suck it up and soldier along for a few years until those kids are big enough to handle the news that Mom is moving out to stay with Auntie Joe. Like when they’re 18 and big enough to kick your ass for abandoning them.

        Hey, it’s True Love, right? True Love will wait.

        That’s an unfashionable view, but it is -my- view. I will be content with the shrieking of whoever wants to have a go at me, because History is on my side. People who cast aside their families to chase tail, be they male, female, gay or straight, are disloyal oath breakers and need to be treated as such. Cash only, no checks.

        This week the great scandal in Ontario is that Patrick Brown, leader of the PC Party, made out with drunk chicks, in his own house. When he was single. Oh, and stopped making out with them when they asked. And then took them safely home too. The bastard!

        Ain’t -nobody- talking about the Premier’s disloyalty to the people that depended on her for their lives. You can’t talk about that. It’s forbidden. Really. Notice I didn’t use the name? That’s why.

        So Jim C. Hines and Floppy Camelflop can pretty much K my A. If Floppy has some kind of weird, messed up domestic situation, I couldn’t possibly care less. His house, his problem. Unless there’s kids involved. Then I might be forced to express some disapproval.

        As one might imagine, my fiction follows along with my views. I will never be published by Tor, a disappointment I will just have to learn to live with.

        On a different note, I have divined the reason why Shadow Dancer does her dancing in the shadows. It’s because she’s actually a giant. If she came out where everybody could see, they’d all run away screaming from fear of being squashed. ~:D

        January 29, 2018
        • Waitwaitwait. What do you mean, “forbidden?”

          January 29, 2018
          • BobtheRegisterredFool #

            Canada being Canada, may actually be illegal. Likely to be prosecuted under their hate speech laws. But what do I know, I’m just a Misocanadist.

            January 29, 2018
          • It’s more a social “forbidden” versus legal. If you happen to point out facts that make a certain demographic look bad you will shouted down as a ***-phobe.

            January 29, 2018
          • Forbidden means that the cops might come ’round for a quiet word. They’ve a tendency to do that.

            People protesting the windmills around here received visits a few years ago. No arrests, just a nice friendly visit. Because they didn’t break the law, they just looked as if they might like to.

            As Jordan Peterson is making famous, the Law in Canada now makes it illegal to mis-gender another person. They want to be called “zhe”, you damwell better call them zhe, or you get a visit and a fine. That is the law.

            Lefties are not known for their restraint, lets just say, and the truth is not a defense. In fact, in Canada the truth is -legally- not a defense. We have Human Rights Tribunals and hate speech laws. Ask Mark Steyn and Ezra Levant about their legal expenses with that. Six figures.

            There is a book out there with page and paragraph, so the interested individual doesn’t have to go far to find out. That author didn’t go to jail yet. But I’m not excited by the idea of constable Plod coming around for a quiet word. I’m funny that way, I guess.

            Some people call it tinfoil-hat paranoia, I call it an abundance of caution.

            January 29, 2018
        • I share your views

          January 29, 2018
          • adventuresfantastic said: “I share your views”

            Thank you. It’s getting quite hard to find things to read at the book store lately, don’t you think? ~:D

            January 29, 2018
        • I once knew a fellow who claimed that “new age” should be a single word, ala ‘sewage’. I doubt he was wrong on that count.

          January 29, 2018
        • Oh, you crazy person, expects adults to behave like adults.
          Guess I must be crazy too, then.
          And so terribly disappointed.
          And so damned often.
          Egad, is Responsibility even more Mythical than I am?!
          If so, your “reality” has trouble beyond imagining.

          January 29, 2018
          • I know, right? Expecting adult behavior is tough these days. One so seldom sees it.

            I have people criticizing me for -exhibiting- adult behavior. It makes them nervous, I guess.

            January 29, 2018
        • On a different note, I have divined the reason why Shadow Dancer does her dancing in the shadows. It’s because she’s actually a giant. If she came out where everybody could see, they’d all run away screaming from fear of being squashed. ~:D

          *looks up from her mug of coffee, waiting for it to cool enough to drink* What in the world makes you think that??? o.O (You’re not the first one to say I should be a lot taller too…)

          January 29, 2018
          • I read your comment above, and I said “Holy shit, she’s going to CRUSH them all!” ~:D Attack of the 50 foot Amazon.

            January 29, 2018
            • Eh, this is nothing. You should’ve seen how I hooked and slooooowly pulled in that poisonous piece of work over at Larry’s some years ago. The one that was pushing for ‘rape is rape if it feels like rape – even afterward.’ Eventually got her to spill that consent didn’t matter in the long run if the ‘woman felt she was raped later on, and that it didn’t matter if it didn’t fit the criminal definition of rape at all, nor if it could never be brought to court.’ Ultimately it was all about destroying the reputation of the other (usually a man) and victim-affirmation, even if it wasn’t rape and just regrets.

              And here we are today.

              January 29, 2018
              • Yes, here we are.

                Imagine where the loonies will be in five years. O.o Holy crap.

                January 29, 2018
                • I’ve seen somewhere “You want more Vox Day / Trump (insert other thing here)? Because this is how you get more (insert thing here they really don’t want.)”

                  It all proceeds as foreseen. What surprises me at times is how quickly they go and escalate.

                  January 29, 2018
                • I mean, seriously. It’s like they take the stupidest, most cracked up, barking mad idea, and then HUG IT TO THEIR CHEST, ENGRAVE IT ON THEIR MINDS and then spread it like a plague of willingly infected zealots.

                  January 29, 2018
                  • You remember what happened to Shia LaBeouf? The Republic of Kekistan/4chan chased him literally from continent to continent, busting his “He will not divide us!” exhibits and sticking MAGA hats on them. For months. They may still be doing it.

                    Imagine Floppy’s remorse if those boys suddenly found him interesting.

                    I hasten to add that I am not suggesting that would be a great idea, because I’m a big believer in Internet anonymity. People should be free to say what they want to say, and Floppy Cameltoe is a boring jackass at best.

                    But, if you’re running around pissing people off as hard as you can, smearing their good name and interfering with their income, you’re running the risk -somebody- will find you worth exerting a couple of hours of IP-fu on.

                    If that sounds like a warning to the various lurkers and trolls, it is. The world is big, and giants dance in the shadows.

                    Or, to quote Agent J, “Don’t start none, won’t be none.”

                    January 29, 2018
                    • I’m tiny, and you over-estimate how much any of us could be arsed to do anything about Floppy unless he actively comes for us with RL consequences. He’s been banging around for a while now, and its taken this long for someone post about the relationship.

                      We have much better things to do with our time, y’know? And I didn’t know Kekistan was a thing. Last I checked it was a parody meme flag. ‘land of the lulz’ as it were.

                      January 29, 2018
              • Arwen #

                I remember that. She was crazy.

                January 29, 2018
                • I remember how she would pull the wounded gazelle gambit when questioned too accurately and retreat to Santo Victimia status. I can only imagine the kind of damage she’s doing today, and would not be in the least bit surprised if she was personally responsible for at least some of the #MeToo bad date accusations that can’t ever be proven or brought in court, but the court of opinion brings them JUSTICE~!!!!1

                  Remember she said she worked at the rape hotline number where she lived.

                  January 29, 2018
          • You do cast a LONG LARGE shadow, lass 🙂

            January 29, 2018
          • My dear lady – I cannot see you as a giant. In fact, my mental image may be taking a few inches off the reality.

            I am very wary of the “little ones”:

            1) They punch lower. They can also see their target better without such an acute angle involved.

            2) They punch harder. My theory is that without the power imparted by a longer lever to work with, they develop their raw strength instead – and tend to go a bit overboard with that compensation.

            Put the above along with the old Nintendo ninja game – “Shadow Dancer” – that I used to play quite a bit, and… BRRR.

            January 29, 2018
            • This was my old forum RPG character and thought it’d make you smile.

              January 29, 2018
              • LOL, actually! Thanks for reminding me I haven’t gone poking around on your DeviantArt for a while. Love all of it, as usual (for some reason, though, “Prayer for the Harvest” struck a special chord; I don’t know exactly why).

                January 30, 2018
                • I’m really glad you like it! It’s probably my favorite Alchemy piece.

                  I really miss Alchemy, but the thing had a memory backdoor so had to drop using it entirely. It was great for sketching abstractly so you could just see what would happen. I’ll have to see if I can do that in Clip Studio.

                  January 30, 2018
    • Actually, Brad, I am an estimable monkey, but still 🙂 Thank you. And they have to blame SOMEONE. Otherwise it would mean taking responsibility. And when has one of them ever had the courage for that?

      January 29, 2018
      • Uncle Lar #

        Dave my brother, when ever did those of that ilk demonstrate that they had the least understanding of the true meaning of courage.
        They make great and glorious claims of speaking truth to power, but upon inspection one will see that it’s their power to cast innuendo and aspersions against those vulnerable and defenseless. And that with the full expectation that they shall suffer absolutely no consequences for their accusations baseless though they might be.

        January 29, 2018
  9. Guillaume #

    “And there’s the argument that since MZB died fifteen years ago, there’s no point to bringing up all of this ugliness and smearing the name of a celebrated author.

    I disagree.”

    Jim C Hines, June 2014 in “Rape, Abuse, and Marion Zimmer Bradley”, first result on an incognito google search for “mzb hines”.
    How you can justify telling blatant falsehoods like “And for the record I can find no statement by Commissar Hines denouncing the left wing feminist lesbian-bi MZB or Breen, or expressing any sympathy or support for their victims,” ?

    Same article, same “Commissar” Hines :
    ” Are you going to tell victims of rape/abuse that nobody’s allowed to acknowledge what was done to them? That the need to protect the reputation of the dead is more important than allowing victims their voice? To hell with that.”

    I already wrote here several months ago how much I liked (and still like I think) Rats, Bats and Vats, which I as described as one the funniest sf books I ever read), but you’re making it harder and harder for me : different political opinions are not a problem, but this ?

    January 29, 2018
    • Guillaume – you will see I publicly corrected my error, and admitted I was wrong on that. It was an afterthought of a comment, written in very small hours of the morning, and I should have checked. I didn’t notice Hines commending the victim that did speak up’s book (the silence from the SF establishment about what is surely the most import book about what was done to those victims is deafening. Have you read that horrific, tragic book? I think they want all to go away, rather than confront the idol of their youth being a very horrible person), or attempt to correct the SFWA president when she belittled the importance of victim’s story. Perhaps you can find reference to that in your perusal of google. Maybe I am wrong on that too. I am wrong at times. When people prove this, I accept that and apologize.

      Hines of course declares that MZB’s works should be considered without reference to her personal life. Well, if you’re good with that, it’s hard to see how you square that with not being able to consider my books separately from my personal views. But, honestly, I don’t care deeply. I am what I am, I say as honestly as possible what I think (which frequently offends people who think I ought to ‘be on their side’) I can -and do- disagree profoundly with people I still like and respect.

      January 29, 2018
  10. It was a much smaller dumpster fire with leftoids that made me change from the old “You need to have a handle” of the early ‘net days, to just using the name most people I meet are going to know me by in everyday life. A long time ago, in the Elf Life forum (when Eric was doing Winger) or maybe Shadowfall (I met Kai online very very long ago, Eric/Carson though him), a similar thinking sjw nutjob hiding behind a screen-name accused me of hiding behind my somewhat anonymous screen-name out of fear.
    I immediately posted my name you see here, as well full name, and city of residence to demonstrate that, no, the guy called jpfuel was not hiding anything. Strangely the whinging a$$wipe, didn’t “unmask” themselves to match or even just a fist name and city of residence, and I seem to have just gone with JP after that on Keen. Alas, it was quite some time ago, so I forget what it was over.
    I ain’t no writer, but I’ll stand with you as well.

    January 29, 2018
    • Thanks JP. It’s not about the quantity, but the quality.

      January 29, 2018
  11. There’s a joke about a lawyer defending his client who says something like: he was out of the country at the time, and they have never met, and anyway she agreed to it, and anyway he paid her according to this contract…

    The responses by them and their allies to the whole Foz & Floppytoes are married reminds me of this.

    This is silly because a simple denial “I am not Toby” with some kind of evidence to show that would end the whole thing. Or if that didn’t work an admitting that “yes I am Toby but Foz & I are swingers who do the swapping thing” or…

    As it is they are getting the worst of everything because even if Cameltoby isn’t Mr Foz Meadows everyone is learned that Mrs M is rather less radical than she wanted to be and that Cameltoby is rather less impressive when issuing blustering denials than when trolling and snarking in places where no one can comment back. This of course ignores the whole Mr & Mrs are just living in cosy suburbia as a front to disguise their secret lives as um desperate wannabe radicals.

    Although maybe I’m wrong. Foz is genderqueer because Cameltoby is in fact a MtoF transexual lesbian…

    January 29, 2018
    • Mike Houst #

      ‘I didn’t do it and I’ll never do it again?’

      Sounds like when I caught my 7-year old writing on the furniture with magic marker.

      January 29, 2018
      • *chuckle* A Filipino cartoonist once drew a fondly exasperated illustration of how his then three or four year old daughter would scribble on the walls then when Daddy came in, she’d point to her infant brother with ‘he did it!’

        Y’know, I wonder how that comic is doing these days. It was a rather popular serial with social commentary of local politics, events and so on – and every single one of his main cast was this HUGELY OVERWEIGHT person – and the artist himself was somewhat chubby. The artist would also do the occasional editorial cartoon. Politically correct it was not, and it was thus quite funny. Some of the cast included a NPA Communist rebel who was drinking buddies with the army guy and the cop. Their kids were friends who would get into occasional punch ups (once, they did so to try catch their respective fathers’ attention, and were rather annoyed when their dads decided to place bets instead.)

        January 29, 2018
        • My older son, at four, drew all over a wall, SIGNED it, and when I came in blamed his baby brother who was less than one and couldn’t even stand up for very long.
          The kicker? He still swears the younger did it. 😀

          January 29, 2018
          • Oh, that’s … that’s such a mum memory right there. Awesome ❤

            And yep, the little girl's baby brother was in a crib, pacifier in mouth, swaddled.

            Dad's expression: ¬_¬

            January 29, 2018
    • Yeah, they really have fanned the flames harder. Fire would be out by now, otherwise.

      January 29, 2018
      • Without us they’ve got nothing going on, Dave. How hard is it to get the troops excited about pronouns, right?

        January 29, 2018
  12. danielshumphreys #

    Couple interesting asides. I tried to engage CF in an honest Q&A to see if he at least UNDERSTOOD why he’s gotten the reaction he has. He’s either completely oblivious or unwilling to publicly admit that yeah, he might have triggered folks. Guessing it’s probably the latter.

    And for someone who claims to be so concerned about the safety of the Meadows’ from the EVIL PUPPIES (which I think is probably ridiculous to begin with, there are no bomb throwers on this side of the aisle), he certainly seems reluctant to prove that he is not who Dave et al say he is. Because if y’all were wrong, that would certainly do a fast pivot of the spotlight, one thinks.

    January 29, 2018
    • Luke #

      He’s in Australia. EVIL PUPPIES are called dingoes down there.
      And he’s terrified that one might eat his baby, thus his histrionics.

      January 29, 2018
      • danielshumphreys #

        CF is Elaine from Seinfeld, confirmed.

        January 29, 2018
    • “I tried to engage CF in an honest Q&A…”

      Well there’s yer problem… ~:D

      January 29, 2018
      • danielshumphreys #

        Yeah, I know. Thankfully I was multitasking, so it wasn’t a COMPLETE waste of time.

        January 29, 2018
  13. Eyes glazed when I saw “Hugo.” The Hugos, like the Grammys, proves the ability to create a coherent sentence does not indicate the ability to think coherently. Feh. Neither one’s worth it.

    On genetics: Had fun in a soon to be ignored novel with a character getting all huffy about those in cahoots with a fictional nation, only to learn she’s a descendant of a scoundrel who worked with them. A friend tries to help by giving her a bit of seaweed and having her half it for each generation. She’s down to a small sliver way before she gets to that blackguard. My, how genetics get diluted, especially if your surname moves around.

    That said, I’ve a particular interest in how strokes take members of my father’s family, and heart issues seem to be on my mother’s side. I know there’s a tendency toward alcoholism on one, possibly both, sides. Of course, that’s a relatively short distance, genetic-wise.

    January 29, 2018
    • The good news is — it now looks like saturated fat helps with preventing strokes. So whatever you do, make sure you chew the fat. 🙂

      January 29, 2018
      • Or ingest it, anyway. (Turns out the gut bacteria of bovines do some mighty interesting biochemistry and all those carbs? “Oh, hello, triglycerides..”)

        January 29, 2018
        • snelson134 #

          Orvan, so do ours; one of the markers for uncontrolled diabetes is triglyceride level.

          January 29, 2018
          • Aye, though that’s blood triglycerides. Seems the microbes do quite an amazing shuffle of organics and the result is something eats what looks like a high-carb diet, but actually ingests a rather high fat diet despite appearances.

            January 30, 2018
  14. Ron S #

    Dave; you are incorrect about Jim Hines. Might you be wrong about other things?

    http://www.jimchines.com/2014/06/rape-abuse-and-mzb/

    Another question would be why did Camestros come back? Assuming that the conclusion that Camestros is Toby is correct, in part because the premiss that “his endless turgid flow” ended when you called him Fieldsy, thus revealing you knew he was Toby. If he fled in fear of discover, then why did he come back?

    Perhaps you have the wrong of it?

    January 29, 2018
    • A) It wasn’t Dave who set this off. You’re all barmy. B) No, from what I can tell he’s not wrong.
      c) the errors aren’t fo the same kind. D) Hines devoted one post to MZB, and…. 100 to excoriating Larry. yeah, that sounds balanced and sane.
      Kindly go piss up a rope.

      January 29, 2018
    • Ron, we each post on a day. We’re all busy working writers, with lives. We take responsibility for our own day, and seldom even look in the the posts of others – something Camestros was aware of – because he left me alone, but pestered others until he got banned. As I recall he picked on someone new, just after Christmas -after an absence of many months – who wasn’t me, and we’d just upgraded the system. My suspicion was he was testing the water – both the stalker-of-young-asian-girls – Marsden -that posts on Camestros’s blog and Vile 777 under various psuedonyms -Yama etc, and Glyer himself do keep trying despite being to told to go and not come back. This is in character for trolls.

      I am sure I am wrong about all manner of things. And when presented with evidence – or at least PLAUSIBLE alternatives I will certainly reconsider my stance on anything. But to do that you will have to provide either evidence that proves what I’ve got wrong OR at least plausible alternatives that fit this IF you come up with set possible alternatives, who fit in ALL of the following subsets, all from Camestros statements or obvious corrolaries (such as for example spending thousands of hours of what has to be work time at times on fandom, sf, hugos, basically requires that the person should be interested in the same) Subset 1) Be an Australian Academic working in academia. 2)From that subset demonstrate a respectable working knowledge and use of Maths, AND Philosophy. 3)Of that now relatively small sample be an ardent follower (or have good reason to be an ardent follower) of sf/fantasy fandom particularly the Hugos – a good reason for example might be having your wife as potential winner. 4) Of that subset – which is by now very small if not down to one — have been in the UK (in Aberdeen) just when the record shows that Toby was and 5)Of that subset having moved back just when both Toby did and Camestros posted about doing. And 6)As both parties claim not to know or have met each other, within the tiny tiny world academics in the same arena, and indeed town, and fandom which is not huge in Oz – for some reason, to never to have attended the same faculty meeting, co-operated on papers, or have attended the same conferences. Come up with a list – perfectly possible to try and do, requiring no genius, just legwork and patience – the records are all public – and I’ll certainly entertain the idea that it could be someone else. But I think you’re going to find it is a short list of one. But by all means, come back to me with that list.

      January 30, 2018
      • Ron S. #

        Dave; wouldn’t one simply need to negate one, not all? on subset 5), you’ve clearly misread Camestros post. It was a joke about Brexit. He or she didn’t move back…

        January 30, 2018
        • Is that the new line of lies from Toby? Mysterious then that ‘Camestros’ IP moved from the place in the UK where Toby was working to the place in Australia where he was working at the right time. What a strange coincidence! Added to all the other strange coincidences… I think I m on the starship heart of gold about to land on Magrathea. Because if this is not infinite improbabilty, it’s close.

          January 30, 2018
          • Ron S. #

            We apparently both came up with that independently. He’s addressed the other concerns as well. And called you a liar.

            January 30, 2018
            • And that’s new? Fieldsy has called everyone he doesn’t like a liar in various ways for years. Methinks he doth project too much. That’s enough now Ron. I’ve entertained the ridiculous for far too long. ‘Camestros’ is a self-proclaimed warrior for social justice. A hero in his own eyes. You ask him to show his noble heroism and save toby and foz. Let him prove who he actually is. That’ll do a wonderful deed of selfless social justice and prove me wrong into the bargain, and he gets to be the darling of puppy kickers, basking in their adulation. Go pester him to do it. If he’s not a liar and a true social justice warrior he’ll step up to the plate. I’ve said my say and have work to do.

              January 30, 2018
              • Ron S. #

                You ask him to show his noble heroism and save toby and foz.

                Or you could just stop. Since it’s clear you are wrong.

                January 30, 2018
                • And you’re a hypocrite. Because for all the screaming about the ‘damage’ we are ‘supposedly’ doing, you’re the lot who are focusing ALL THE ATTENTION on a throwaway speculation that was very quickly discarded. Also, Dave’s already answered that – and you clearly don’t care about reputations, you just want to beat your drums.

                  We already discarded that speculation, if you only had the eyeballs to read, but nooo. Instead, you’re the ones focusing on it. Yet somehow, this is our fault? No. You’ll continue to ignore inconvenient facts because that’s your schtick. We’ve listed it out for everyone else who has a working brain and reading comprehension as a skill, and clearly you’re not one of them.

                  January 30, 2018
                  • Of course, they’ve all done noting but confirm that Dave is right, because if this was some random unknown couple, they wouldn’t even care.

                    January 30, 2018
                • Ron, I’m kind of out of patience with this bullshit. You and your mates made this a big deal. Not me. What do I have to ‘stop’? You jackasses made this mountain out of a molehill. Live on it. You’ve so far proved nothing and done nothing but sea-lion, but somehow magically I’m wrong. You’re a waste of time and energy. You’re Spam listed.

                  January 30, 2018
                  • Ron S. #

                    I knew admitting you were wrong or uncertain would be too much for you. Too bad.

                    January 30, 2018
                    • Then why did you even waste my time? I mean you _knew_. And you must have known because you’re super-intelligent or something, not because you actually had seen evidence of me never admitting I’m wrong. But you _knew_. That’s on a par with your belief in Fieldsy’s frantic lies, seeing as there were two pieces of evidence in this post of my having admitted I was wrong. Yeah. Pure genius. On that track record, anything YOU know, is wrong, and anything you say is wrong, is right. And you just know Cammy is not Fieldsy. No evidence of who he is, no alternatives, but you _know_.

                      Anyway stop _telling_ me ME what I should do. SHOW me instead. Show me. There are literally tens of thousands of examples of your chums in File 770 and Cammys and Hines little blog of people who, no doubt about it, are provably dead wrong. The ones calling me Nazi. The ones calling Brad a racist. The ones calling Sarah a Mormon man. I could go on for hours on the list of dead easy-to-prove, no-doubt-at-all vicious, slanderous lies… that’s without getting to the reasonable doubt list of accusations, and oddly, when you look, there’s no Ron S saying to anyone ‘just stop’. Never has been. So, SHOW ME Ron. Go forth. When you’ve cleared that backlog, when all of these attackers who, without doubt, were wrong have admitted they were wrong or uncertain, come back. I’m sure when I see that standard of remarkable integrity, the tens of thousands of apologies, the hundreds of thousands of ‘oh… I should give them the benefit of the doubt’ I’ll think ‘these are people worth according the same’.

                      Failing that, Ron, go and join Hinesy and his mob of hypocrites. Like them I’ll bet you never were one of my readers, and never would have been.

                      January 30, 2018
  15. Speaking of DARVO, the Google SJWs are claiming that they are being harassed at work now. Since Damore and a few less famous people got canned for being white, male and conservative (small c) the Diversity edgelords are crying that the Google offices have become a hell of anti-everything harassment.

    I got my popcorn right here. Great show, this is.

    January 29, 2018
    • Yeah, 4chan isn’t anybody’s friend, but… it couldn’t happen to nicer people.

      (And if you work *for Google*, and still don’t understand the perils of public information or putting stuff on the Internet… sheesh.)

      January 29, 2018
      • Is like the joker what started BaseFook saying “privacy is an obsolete concept” being all upset HE might be spied upon. Welcome.. to YOUR WON WORLD, fool. never sow what you dare not reap.

        January 29, 2018
        • s/WON/OWN/ hooves, typoes, yada-yadda..

          January 29, 2018
        • I found it most entertaining that the owner of FarceBook had a piece of tape over the camera on his laptop. People used to call me crazy when I put a bandaid on mine.

          Funny, they never call me crazy about that any more…

          January 29, 2018
          • I was skimming through a local Prepper’s site (since Prepping here is a matter of ‘or else you lose your house to brush fires started by freaking hawks’) and they had a section on digital prepping. It was all fine until the whole thing got to the part about using Chrome as their main browser and talking about how to maintain one’s privacy on that…I just couldn’t take it seriously at that point.

            January 29, 2018
            • That reminds me. I need to try the experiment of blocking access to all Google IPs and see what breaks (apart from the obvious)

              January 29, 2018
              • If you’re blocking a lot of Google APIs as well, a lot of websites/web related things won’t function; or be wonky, so you’ve gotta do things one at a time versus a blanket ‘nope all this’.

                January 29, 2018
                • But how wonky is the question.

                  Also what things are hosted by google on its infrastructure (AS15169) that aren’t obviously google?

                  The subnets hosted there summarize down to 61 CIDR blocks according to my calculations. It shouldn’t be too hard to stick those in a firewall and see what happens to a PC behind it 🙂

                  January 31, 2018
    • I hadn’t heard of that. Got a link to something about it?

      January 29, 2018
  16. Dolphins generally represent seapower, which is why they appear on a lot of port cities’ arms. But they can also represent hospitality (because dolphins are friendly to boats) or charity (because dolphins in fact and legend have saved a lot of shipwrecked people).

    And Dave’s a diver! And he rescues people! Apparently the dolphin doesn’t fall far from the… seaweed….

    Re: CF, I didn’t realize he was one of the creeps who object to Moira Greyland letting some light in. I don’t think “young and dumb” covers that one. He’s a professor, and he not only should but must know better. He’s in a responsible job where one of his students might need his help in reporting child abuse.

    January 29, 2018
    • 🙂 heh. Yeah I found the coat of arms – and the crest (antelope on a ducal coronet) amusing that without the least intent either genetics or traditions seem to ring true.

      Everyone is young to me, Suburbanbanshee. I was around 90 when I got out of the army. I’m slowly getting younger.

      January 29, 2018
  17. Re: Friar/Fryar/Frere/Freer/Freir — It could be an illegitimacy surname, but it’s just as likely to be the surname of somebody who worked at a friary, or at somebody who tried an order as a novice and didn’t make it. Which is not to say that it couldn’t be from a failed friar.

    (In some cases, people even got surnames from their nicknames, based on some fancied resemblance in their looks or dress. But there are a lot of people with Friar surnames, so probably most of them actually were from people who were friars at one point.)

    Anyway, I forgot to say that the point of a “dolphin embowed” is that you see its back, so Dave, you have just made a heraldic pun. 🙂

    January 29, 2018
    • Which means that having the same surname doesn’t guarantee having the same ancestor, even without hanky-panky. Some website nailed it that Cheeks in America would like to claim John Cheke as an ancestor, but there’s just no hard evidence. He does serve as an object lesson, though.

      My parents have a Cheek Coat-of-Arms on the wall, purchased from Sears in the 1970s, and it’s about as valid as a three dollar bill. Technically, we’d have have to design our own. Maybe a moldboard plow with crossed shotguns and the motto “Repensium est canicula.”.

      January 29, 2018
      • And then there’s innocent writing and interpretations… such as the fellow name of ‘Neubauer’ and someone, somewhere wrote with ‘u’ that looked like ‘v’ and thus he got letters for ‘Nevbaver’ – from a branch of gov’t service that you might expect would do at least minimal research/cross-referencing — thus his reluctance (refusal) to reply.

        January 29, 2018
    • There’s also the theory that it comes from ‘soothsayer’ – freer in scotland (as in someone who spilled guts and read the future from them 🙂 Not that it matters, I am what I am.

      January 29, 2018
  18. Doug Jones (Chief 45) #

    ok. I’ve been looking over the fence on occasion for the last several years, read a lot of comments and followed some of the goings on from Sad Puppies and that “professional” organization and quite frankly, what I saw was the same cycle of violence that I have responded to on a regular basis for the last 30+ years. Authors kept going back into that abusive cesspool. just like so many of the victims of DV. Many, many folk have questioned your reasons for doing so and the only even semi-valid response was, “well, we want/need the professional support”. wow. ok. whatever, your life, your emotional dollars, your trying to enhance your career. I get it. Your wrong, it was not enhancing or supporting your career if you were wrong think/wrong speak/wrong group, etc , , , but,

    for me, my decision as a fan and reader, made many many years ago, was my purchase dollars went to Jim Baen. period. SFWA and HUGO was the kiss of death. I could not find anything outside of Baen that did not make me literally throw books into the fireplace. since then, from recommendations of associates, I’ve expanded that to some indie published stuff, (electronic formats are good for the wallet and the addiction gets fed a bit more). so, I look at this new outfit and my thoughts are, it’s about time, and good luck with growing it.

    January 29, 2018
  19. “And for the record I can find no statement by Commissar Hines denouncing the left wing feminist lesbian-bi MZB or Breen, or expressing any sympathy or support for their victims, so one has to ask: why does HE finds it suddenly so bad to have someone compared to them?”

    http://www.jimchines.com/2014/06/rape-abuse-and-mzb/

    Google is your FRIEND, Dave.

    Maybe just consider that if you’ve been SO blatantly wrong about this one thing you said, you just MIGHT be wrong about any and ALL of the other things you’re saying?

    January 29, 2018
    • BobtheRegisterredFool #

      Google is an enemy to anyone who loves freedom. They’ve been known for years as having cooperating with the PRC’s censorship regime. They are a friend to no one who hates tyranny.

      January 29, 2018
      • Your belief about Google is besides the point here. What do you think of the blog entry showing that Dave has (in the MOST charitable interpretation) flung nasty accusations without bothering to verify in the slightest whether they’re true (which, in this case, they verifiably aren’t?)

        January 29, 2018
        • BobtheRegisterredFool #

          Google’s cooperation is fairly well established. Sure, it isn’t discussed much these days, but fifteen, twenty years ago?

          January 29, 2018
          • Is that you conceding the point that Dave is blatantly wrong and you just don’t care?

            January 29, 2018
            • Nah, it’s just that we could bury you in evidence and you’d still demand more so why bother?

              January 29, 2018
            • I am not Bob, but I will point out that one comment in 2014 is hardly a fierce defense of the abuse victims. What has Hines done for us lately?

              Where’s his loud and constant condemnation of MZB? Why hasn’t he expunged her work from his universe, with pictures of the books burning? Where’s the weekly podcast, Jayne?!!!

              That’s the new standard, isn’t it? “Silence is assent! You are complicit! Burn the witch!”

              F-ing stupidity you ask me, but whatever.

              Plus, if you -read- what he said (like that’s going to happen), he’s actually accusing Floppy Cameltron of having a normal marriage. Shocking, I know.

              January 29, 2018
              • You know, I said the above in jest. But then I went and read that Hines post.

                Let’s compare what Hines has said about MZB to what he’s had to say about Larry Correia, or the Sad Puppies. Never mind content, how about just plain word count?

                Awaiting your reply, Jaynsand.

                January 29, 2018
            • BobtheRegisterredFool #

              Being a complete expert on the writings of Hines is not something I would expect of Dave. a) he has a life b) I understand his internet time is relatively expensive. The claim about what he can find is a) not particularly central to the post b) in fact not something you have shown to be false. (Different search engines do not always give the same results for different search terms.) He didn’t research that one point well enough? This isn’t a marine biology paper, and I’m familiar with a lot of the evidence that supports his more central points.

              I’m sure you go looking in scientific journals written by Chinese and Indians in English, and take every bit of wrong grammar as a sign that the thing wasn’t reviewed properly, and that the writer wasn’t competent to publish. Come on, find a better counterargument. Either a) find an error sufficient to indict the whole or b) stick to a defensible indictment for the error you did find or c) try the old ‘you sound angry’ routine or d) keep your messaging to venues that will give you an A for effort.

              And these days, ‘Google is your friend’ is more than a bit risible.

              January 29, 2018
      • Bob, that was an excellent sea lion move. Nicely done. ~:D

        January 29, 2018
        • Gotcha. Truth is besides the point here.

          January 29, 2018
          • You are not concerned with the truth. You are concerned with attacking someone whose stance you dislike. It is encumbrance on you to prove YOUR stance while you are here not the other way around.

            January 29, 2018
            • Well, I DID leave a link you can use as proof of my ‘stance’ that Dave is utterly wrong about Hines ignoring MZB’s guilt. You ignoring that does seem to demonstrate you’re not actually interested in any proof that you or he might be wrong.

              January 29, 2018
              • And did you read, as someone else pointed out, just one post back from where you cited where he attacked the book’s author? Your evidence is mighty thin. It’s also cute that you’re ignoring Dave’s main point… and so proving it quite handily. “Skim Till Offended”. Getting close to a Bingo here.

                January 29, 2018
              • But Jayne I haven’t heard YOUR condemnation. And not just once tepidly avoiding all facts about their political, feminist and gay credentials that they traded on, and in your own name, Jayne. Come now Jayne – that’s your sides rules. Condemn the Lesbian Feminist MZB and her gay ‘husband’ and their actions and the way your side covered for them. Do it now, Jayne. Not once, but publicly and often, and condemn and demand the isolation of all – including the current SFWA chairman whose condemnation was either absent or infrequent, or luke-warm. And guilt-by-association of ALL who fail to condemn and denounce with sufficient vigor. Those are YOUR sides rules Jayne. Live by them. Post that full condemnation every time you post as a prelude – or don’t post again.
                Come on Jayne. Live by YOUR rules. Show us.

                January 29, 2018
              • Andrew #

                I don’t think there is anything blatant about Dave ignoring Jims post. His lone, single post on the entire MZB issue. Going back and rereading it, I remember reading it the first time around now, and the discussions in the comments were mostly civil and open. But this was also around the time Jim thought getting into with Larry Correia over this issue was a good idea as well, right?

                But then Hines and the rest of the Worldcon SF community et al took the accusations so seriously they voted Greylands work last, putting No Award above it. Yes, rape is indeed serious, unless it’s a work nominated by Vox Day, then we can’t recognize it, because the “who” is way more important than the “What”, right?

                Then again, ignoring the evidence is something a certain segment of the SF community does very well on a regular basis.

                January 29, 2018
                • Andrew: this. “Yes, rape is indeed serious, unless it’s a work nominated by Vox Day, then we can’t recognize it, because the “who” is way more important than the “What”, right?.
                  perfect analysis.

                  January 29, 2018
          • You do understand that my name is not Bob, right Jayne? I’m mocking -you-, not him.

            January 29, 2018
            • danielshumphreys #

              One blog post back in 2014, based on Google.

              One might assume he dropped the subject because of Moira’s personal beliefs, or the sad fact that only one maligned publisher was willing to publish her.

              Given the current cultural issues we face, Moira’s story is rather timely – and yet, it’s ignored in certain quarters of fandom. Why is that, I wonder?

              January 29, 2018
              • Ignored at a time when H.P. Lovecraft is being removed from award statues because of racism, Heinlein is derided as a fascist, and Asimov is being maligned for sexism.

                Yet MZB isn’t being stricken from the rolls of The Great due to the fabulously disgusting crimes she perpetrated. Hines himself in the 2014 article is talking about separating The Work from The Author.

                So yes, Dave Freer is clearly delusional for noticing this trend. For F Sakes.

                January 29, 2018
                • danielshumphreys #

                  *cough* Delaney *cough*

                  January 29, 2018
                  • Hey, Delaney is sacred, dude. No talking about him, somebody might call you a racist.

                    Oh wait, this is MGC. Too late. ~:D

                    January 29, 2018
                    • danielshumphreys #

                      “I don’t care about his skin color or his orientation, I care that he supports an organization that believes adult men should be able to diddle boys . . ”

                      “REEEEEE!!! RAAAAACIST!”

                      January 29, 2018
                • gnored at a time when H.P. Lovecraft is being removed from award statues because of racism, Heinlein is derided as a fascist, and Asimov is being maligned for sexism.

                  Yet MZB isn’t being stricken from the rolls of The Great due to the fabulously disgusting crimes she perpetrated. Hines himself in the 2014 article is talking about separating The Work from The Author.

                  It’s only proving the point that associating with pedophiles isn’t an issue with them, because that hasn’t been one of the windmills they tilt against.

                  January 29, 2018
                  • I think its more that she’s -their- pedo.

                    Also they’re trying to normalize -all- the freaky, and they’ll be at pedo in about five years. Shame to waste a soiled icon when she’ll be fully renovated and rehabilitated soon, right?

                    January 29, 2018
              • It’s ignored because, as I’ve noted in various links here, they have a lot of their fellow travelers to cover for and have very easily documented previous precedents to worry about. But since pedophilia the kind of thing we find unforgivable, they have to focus on it, because really, the theory that is actually in force is that the Meadows are hiding that they are quite vanilla boring, not fabulous genderqueer icons of … shiny?

                And you can’t really scream about people speculating about a couple of people being dull. It’s not a crime to be normal in our side of the fence…

                January 29, 2018
          • Oh Sweetie! Open your eyes and turn on your brain.

            January 30, 2018
            • Draven #

              bless his heart?

              January 30, 2018
    • Mea culpa – that’s actually quite a good post by commissar Hines. I’ll modify my post accordingly. Of course Hines omitted any mention of her and her ‘husband’ use of their left-wing feminist credentials or their homosexuality. Because none of those sets of people can be evil. Except of course, like the rest of humanity, they can.

      Good sea-lion attempt, Jayne.

      January 29, 2018
      • *chuckle* I like the edit you made, Dave.

        January 29, 2018
      • Glad to be of help. And as long as we’re at it, perhaps you could consider the possibility that you might be mistaken on some of your other conclusions as well? Especially the one where you compare Foz Meadows’ family to that of a notorious pair of child abusers on no evidence? All of what you posit can be easily contradicted by examining her blog. Yes, you were just tossing it off as a possibility, but it’s a horrible comparison to make and has the potential to damage people IRL.

        January 29, 2018
        • And you were…Where, exactly, when Larry Correia was being slandered so hard that his wife got calls from old friends asking if she was in an abusive relationship?

          January 29, 2018
          • Where was this person when everyone was being slanderously described as a Nazi racist misogynist homophobe for being part of Sad Puppies? Y’know, including the people who’d actually fought against real racism, have experienced actual racist violence, and all that?

            Oh wait, I totally forgot, the vilers don’t actually respect us, or think of us as human or worthy of anything vaguely resembling human rights. We are NOT accorded the same rights, or same respect, or same ANYTHING as their side is, because we disagree with their views.
            Suddenly, they’re ‘concerned’ about the ‘potential damage’ to people IRL, when they have people like these on their side.

            The eight stages of the SJW attack sequence are as follows:
            1. Locate or Create a Violation of the Narrative.
            2. Point and Shriek.
            3. Isolate and Swarm.
            4. Reject and Transform.
            5. Press for Surrender.
            6. Appeal to Amenable Authority.
            7. Show Trial.
            8. Victory Parade.

            We’re at ‘appeal to amenable authority’ – and notably, the SJW is refusing to hold to their OWN standard of guilt by association, and having to answer for someone else’s thoughts, words, actions and crimes. They think that one measly little post from Whiny Chiney is enough to get them off the hook forever – but we have to constantly give them what they demand.

            January 29, 2018
            • I’m not playing that game anymore. We’re not hurting anyone by revealing they’re normal.
              I’m sick and tired of the other side making up whole narratives about us, then getting upset because we expose the floppy camel for the good little boy he is. Bah.

              January 29, 2018
              • I speculate they’ll have a seafood spaghetti for dinner, from the local pub, which shall be enjoyed in front of the telly/netflix with their favorite beverage of choice. WITHOUT ICE – DUN DUN DUUUUN….

                January 29, 2018
                • And then… get this… they’ll go to SLEEP.
                  HOOOOOORRRRRRRORS.

                  January 29, 2018
                  • Paul (Drak Bibliophile) Howard #

                    With each other and with nobody else! The Horror!!!!!! 😈

                    January 29, 2018
                    • Then … tomorrow, they’ll have breakfast! Coffee, from a capsule machine (not at the local coffee shop!) – no sugar of course – then off to work, grabbing an avo and egg toastie at the local coffee shop en route, because they ended up lingering too long over the coffee talking, and forgot to actually make breakfast. AAAAGGGGH!!! It cannot be borne!

                      January 29, 2018
                    • Shocking, shocking.

                      January 29, 2018
              • In fairness, bringing up comparisons to Breen and Bradley wasn’t exactly in the “reveal that they’re normal” category.
                However. As has been pointed out, said comparisons were jettisoned quickly in favor of “Foz Meadows isn’t nearly as edgy as she pretends to be.”

                January 30, 2018
                • Yep, basically. The other one was “this worst case scenario doesn’t seem to be true.”

                  January 30, 2018
            • Draven #

              And… they are trying to swarm.

              January 29, 2018
        • Tell you what Jayne. I’ll happily consider it IF you come up with set possible alternatives, who fit in ALL of the following subsets, all from Camestros statements or obvious corrolaries (such as for example spending thousands of hours of what has to be work time at times on fandom, sf, hugos, basically requires that the person should be interested in the same) Subset 1) Be an Australian Academic working in academia. 2)From that subset demonstrate a respectable working knowledge and use of Maths, AND Philosophy. 3)Of that now relatively small sample be an ardent follower (or have good reason to be an ardent follower) of sf/fantasy fandom particularly the Hugos – a good reason for example might be having your wife as potential winner. 4) Of that subset – which is by now very small if not down to one — have been in the UK (in Aberdeen) just when the record shows that Toby was and 5)Of that subset having moved back just when both Toby did and Camestros posted about doing. And 6)As both parties claim not to know or have met each other, within the tiny tiny world academics in the same arena, and indeed town, and fandom which is not huge in Oz – for some reason, to never to have attended the same faculty meeting, co-operated on papers, or have attended the same conferences. Come up with a list – perfectly possible to try and do, requiring no genius, just legwork and patience – the records are all public – and I’ll certainly entertain the idea that it could be someone else. But I think you’re going to find it is a short list of one. (sigh) This is not genius level detection Jayne. Hiding your persona is hard. That’s why I told the young idiot to give it up before he was caught and hurt himself and partner.

          January 29, 2018
          • Can’t help you there. But the main thing I asked you to consider you might be wrong about is your comparison of the Meadows’ marriage to MZB’s. As even 60guilders pointed out above, comparing them to Breen and Bradley is unnecessary if all you want to say is that they have a normal marriage, and it can even be harmful IRL to a real young family. FM’s most recent blog shows that your theorizing leading to that comparison is mistaken. It will do no harm to your theory that Camestros is Toby to at least take that bit out.

            January 30, 2018
            • Oh, so you’ll all stop accusing us of being Nazi racist misogynist homophobic bigots too? And enforce that amongst your side? Punish them and go after your fellows who do this without solid proof?

              Fantastic! We’ll wait for your side to do that – start applying the standards YOU expect us to abide by to your side of the fence.

              January 30, 2018
              • Wait – you’re asking them to not be hypocrites? You MONSTER!!!

                😛

                January 30, 2018
                • Yep! I’m asking them to treat us like… human beings and equals. Shocking, I know. I don’t expect that they’ll be quite so willing to treat us with the same respect they demand, so…

                  January 30, 2018
                  • Nate plainly doesn’t understand: ‘My blog: my rules’ I know the words were probably too complex for his intellect to grasp, as he displayed in previous posts – but he was given terms before posting again. He breached those terms. He’s now banned and spam-listed. – Dave

                    January 30, 2018
                    • Uh huh. Sure that’s what you think I said. Keep trying, it’s cute how you lot distract from the reality that it’s NEVER going to happen because you folks don’t actually think we’re deserving of any of that. You keep proving it with your interactions here.

                      January 30, 2018
                    • Oh, thank you, apology accepted. I’m looking forward to you chiding your friends if they decide to similarly make sweeping claims of our supposed bigotry, etc, especially the notably unproven and without evidence white supremacist/Nazi/homophobe/racist/etc that usually is thrown as rather casual descriptors for any of us who isn’t on your political or opinion-side. Coz, after all, that’s not right if such loaded terms are thrown just to disqualify our opinions, points of view, or arguments, especially if they’re done so to dissuade people from actually reading what was said, yes? It happens so often that we’ve become quite jaded.

                      (your comment below doesn’t have a reply button, so I’m replying to this one.)

                      January 30, 2018
            • Jayne. Let me get this straight: Foz’s selling point is her ‘Gender Queer’ status. If she has a ‘normal marriage’ then she’s the Rachael Dolezal of ‘Gender Queer’ and has been usurping the place of what you would consider a persecuted and deserving minority, using the special perks and privileges and attention that goes with that status in modern publishing and SJW circles. I mean you don’t call a married monogamous woman polyandrous if she goes all gooey at her favorite actor, or if she had a lover before that monagamous marriage. So: you want me to pretend the other options don’t exist and that she has to be liar and a fraud? I don’t see the kindness in that.

              And – when seeking for other reasons for secrecy – which was precisely what we were discussing we should ignore as a reason the idea that they don’t want to be compared to a couple in so many publicly visible respects so similar. A similarity which escapes no-one, said or unsaid. But you want me to pretend it’s not there. How honest. It’s Camestros, Foz and hinesey and all your buddies – where I notice you’ve raised not one word about my reputation or my family, or my career – who studiously ignored the first possibility and claimed I was accusing them of being pedophiles – what I actually said is that they don’t want to be thought of in the same terms as the obvious association.

              When it comes to protecting young families, by the desperation to distract from possibility one and to attack me on a complete falsehood – it’s not me who did Foz and Toby great harm. It’s Hines and friends. They carefully and deliberately made a huge farrago deliberately misinterpreting me to slander, of a few words of the 4th point of a comment in the middle of a vast comment thread. Without them doing so – perhaps 10 people might have noticed. With them – they made it into a drama. They cared not all for the reputations and welfare of this ‘young family’. They wanted to attack and the ‘young family’ were collateral damage. Now go and lecture them.

              And while you’re at it, as I have work to do, and I am constantly told that SJW and puppy kickers are our moral betters and we should follow their lead – go and lead. There are many young families among the Sad Puppies who have suffered attacks on their reputations and careers – and with infinitely less substance or reason. People who called Brad’s wife and kid ‘shields’. People who called Sarah a Mormon man. People who called me a liar when I presented verifiable figures showing the level of ideological discrimination. People who called us Nazis, racists, homophobes, misogynists – all of which even if there was a total absence of evidence for, your friends screamed from the rooftops, got published in the press right across the world. Yes. When threatened with legal action we got the initial story retracted, but it appeared in papers across the world. That’s just the tip of the iceberg of what was hurled at us. Where were you thinking about the young families being hurt? Not one of the crew now screaming what a wicked person I am stood up and lead and did what you claim I should do. But you’re better than us? You’re showing us morality?

              Or are you actually admitting we’re far, far more honest, moral, kinder and decent than your lot (which is something the stats support, but a piss-poor platform to be claiming moral leadership from), and that you trade on fact that your foes are better people than you? Don’t _tell_ me what I should do. You _show_ me how _you_ do it, and how you ask the same of your side. Come back when you can cite your personal pleas for kindness and generosity and consideration of ‘young families’ on our side.

              But you won’t, any more than ‘Camestros’ will ‘reveal’ his actual name to help a young family (that’ll be the day).

              I don’t want any more replies from you (Spam list if you do) without a full list of cites where you made similar please for the reputation and careers of all the victims of your puppy kicker friends.

              January 30, 2018
  20. Allen Hunter #

    Dave, you have my support!

    January 29, 2018
  21. Allen Hunter #

    Dave, you are a stand up guy. I’m with you!

    January 29, 2018
  22. Grumble… I missed all the ‘fun’… Too busy writing to go play on the web, but an alternative to SFWA is definitely interesting!!! And I stand with Dave. Salt of the earth, or at least NZ 🙂

    January 29, 2018
    • BobtheRegisterredFool #

      Grey Man is better than anything involving Hines et al. is worth.

      January 29, 2018
    • Dave is more sea salt, isn’t he? ~:D

      January 29, 2018
      • I thought it was DeMille that was more SeaSalt.
        Oh, Cecil? Huh.

        January 29, 2018
        • Cecil is a sea serpent, not a sea salt. Bwaha!

          January 29, 2018
  23. Ok, I have a pig to go and butcher. I know, I should be doing lofty things, but that’s a few months of meals. Don’t break the place while I’m gone. Any rabid SJW hold to the same standards and make them play the same rules they demand of others. None of them succeed at that.

    January 29, 2018
    • mrsizer #

      Just bought Changling’s Island and stumbled on Pyramid Scheme so I bought it, too. Have a side-dish on me 😉

      January 29, 2018
      • Bravo! Thank you. Please tell me how you enjoy the CHANGELING sometime.

        January 30, 2018
  24. By the way, I have that RATS BATS & VATS book in my library, and I loved it. It has that beat-up look of a tome read many times.

    January 29, 2018
    • Matthew #

      I do love those rats

      January 29, 2018
  25. Christopher M. Chupik #

    And Glyer finally weighs in, accusing Dave of exploiting people’s pain for clicks.

    Irony.

    January 30, 2018
    • Yeah, what pain? Oh, the tragedy of being revealed to be the professorial half of a happy couple! The horror, the horror.

      January 30, 2018
    • Matthew #

      He doesn’t really do self awareness, does he?

      January 30, 2018
    • It’s Glyer. He’s projecting as usual. We are talking about Glyer – who lies and selectively quotes to harm – and then still has to hire Chinese bots because traffic is important to him.

      January 30, 2018
    • Glyer weighs in? The fricking image that just formed in my mind…

      CURSE YOU, CHUPIK!!!! WHAT HAVE YOU DONE?!!!!

      January 30, 2018
  26. Just to kick off a new comment thread… Dave, I don’t know what the tax laws are in Oz, but here in the States official marriage is a big factor in your taxes, among other things. (I remember one person my age going absolutely ape over their church-going, strait-laced widowed mother “living in sin” with her new love. If they were married, their Social Security income would have been cut in half…)

    Is it possible that this couple is actually what they claim to be – but are simply ensuring (like any rational actor does) that their “fair share” is as small as possible?

    (Not that I’m contemplating divorce – but I am going to be taking a very close look at the tax reform changes here just as soon as the filings for last year are wrapped up. Sigh, this takes up several days every blasted year.)

    January 31, 2018
    • nope. It’s unlikely to give them any financial benefit from the state.

      January 31, 2018
      • Thank you. If it were only so here – although I don’t know what we’d do with all of those unemployed CPAs and estate planners.

        I remember when my parent’s very experienced tax lawyer and CPA found an obscure bit in the Code that preferentially treated couples that got married during WW2 (well, our involvement) and the husband being sent overseas after that. I don’t recall the amount, if I ever did know it – but I do know that was the year my mom finally got a car of her own…

        January 31, 2018
        • If you’re below a certain income level (80k a year I think?) and have children you get something called Family Tax Benefit A and B until the child hits 18- but you get that regardless of whether or not you’re married or de-facto (common law?), or single. It’s not something conferred only to the mother, and thus gender-neutral.

          It’s supposed to help families who are either on the lower income bracket or single-wage earners. From what I understand, the income of both parents count toward the income level (again, regardless of marriage or couple’s status.)

          (Someone was asking me about this some time ago, so I had to look at stuff about it. My info might be out of date.)

          January 31, 2018
  27. We seem to be having an affliction of determined trolls – Kathodus AKA Todd, a Ron S and Nate Hoffelder, as well as a rash of psuedonyms some sharing IP addresses. All of these people have been set conditions for posting again – posting a full list of how they I’ve seen no signs of compliance. Let me say it in small words and short sentences.

    There are many young families among the Sad Puppies who have suffered attacks on their reputations and careers – and with infinitely less substance or reason, and with far more damage than the largely self-inflicted ‘injury’ you’re being hysterical about. People who called Brad’s wife and kid ‘shields’. People who called Sarah a Mormon man. People who called me a liar when I presented verifiable figures showing the level of ideological discrimination. People who called us Nazis, racists, homophobes, misogynists – all of which even if there was a total absence of evidence for, you and your friends screamed from the rooftops, got published in the press right across the world. Yes. When threatened with legal action we got the initial story retracted, but it appeared in papers across the world. That’s just the tip of the iceberg of what was hurled at us. Where were you then, thinking about the young families being hurt? Not one of the crew now screaming what a wicked person I am stood up and lead, and did what you claim I should do. But you’re better than us? You’re showing us morality?

    Show me how it should be done.

    In the meanwhile I’ll continue to spam-list your comments, which will eventually result in you not just failing to post here, but unable to post on wordpress anywhere.

    February 5, 2018

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