The Demons of Critique Groups – Addendum to Novel Workshop



Now, these can be a problem in short stories too, but some of them are rather specific to novels, and if you’re a first time novel writer and find a writer group for guidance, they’ll eat you alive.

I could give you a list of ten, but I figure it will do nothing, because to counter the poison, you need to know why it’s a poison, and that it in fact has nothing to do with your novel.

Let me start by saying that writing critique groups are invaluable. I understand artists have them too and the last time I took a class, the teacher said I was now ready for one, and that it was the only way to get me from where I was to where I should be.

Because at some point you get past what you can be taught and need to get to what you can learn (on your own/with peers.) It’s hard to explain, but if you’ve been there you know it. As a writing teacher I (and definitely Dwight Swain in his books) can teach you the very basics, but as you grow and develop your own style and flourishes, only your peers reading as readers can tell you if it’s working or not.

That reading as readers is important. You’re going to say “but why a writers’ group, then?”

Oy. Well, if you can’t get a writers’ group then a group of ten or so readers will do. Ignore anything that ten of them don’t emphatically say.

There’s many reasons why writers’ groups are better, though. For one, you’re going to have a heck of a time, as an unpublished author, finding ten people who read in your particular subgenre to read your stuff. (That last sometimes still gets me, say when I’m writing historical vampires.) Second, readers ALWAYS think what you want them to critique is your grammar, punctuation and word choice. No, I don’t know why either. However, it’s universal. They either can’t turn that part off, not being used to seeing books in state of assembly, or they honestly view writing as the important part of writing. By which I mean not the storytelling, but the word use. Because they don’t do either, they talk on the one they’re more competent on. (Be glad. My grandfather, shown a short story when I was 11, critiqued it on penmanship. He was actually a voracious reader and friend with many authors of his time – not a mean storyteller, either – but in his time manuscripts were submitted hand written. He told me no editor would fight my scrawl to read it, and first I needed calligraphy classes!)

Third, and more important, readers lack the vocabulary. They can tell you they like it or not, and whether they like a character or not (I love having beta readers) and they can give you a general “this is the best ever” but they can’t tell you “Chapter 22, the action lags. I think you need to set up a bigger challenge.” For that, you need someone who has at least inked his hands with a story or two.

Interestingly, my husband says that once he’d learned enough to give me useful critiques, he’d become a writer.

Anyway, the problem with most groups, particularly open, come who might, changes every week groups, is that they often don’t read as readers. Having written a story or two, they think they’re now professionals (Particularly if they had some early success) and you’re a lowly amateur who needs to be taught.

Another problem is the groups that have a leader or a gospel. By which I mean, the groups that have the ONE published author (the reason I don’t have a group right now, and I desperately need one, is that I refuse to take up that role) and the author has Opinions on how Things Are Done.

The best group I ever belonged to held me back for two years when we (I was very much to blame in this) fell under the sway of the One Published Writer with a Gospel. In her case, she had sold one book, ten years before. And she had this THEORY of how to write a book. (Which didn’t work at all outside her narrow specialty.) Weirdly for a woman, she disapproved of feelings or interior dialogue, which she thought was “romance.” (No, really.)

She cost us a good two years as we bent backwards to do what she said. Then she moved on. Years later, when I sold, I sent her my first published novel on email. She must not have understood the email, because she told me it would never get published, and it was “romance.” Shrug.

Even the best groups will have one of these:


  • The person who never wrote/can’t write a novel and who will do his/her best to discourage you out of inadequacy, though that’s not what they say.
  • The amnesiac. If you’re bringing in a chapter a week, he’s forgotten the previous chapter and will query everything he doesn’t get.
  • The expert. Your novel is a nail and he has a hammer. My favorite of this was the guy who yelled at me for using burner and how I should give the make and model of the gun – completely missing the (described) fact it was a laser weapon.
  • The POV fanatic. You have pov violations. I have pov violations. We all have pov violations. Mea culpa mea maxima culpa. It is impossible to write a story without pov violations. Which is why you should sit in a corner and never write again, you violator you.
  • The typo and punctuation priest. He will tell you that you’ll never be a writer because you misplaced a comma on page 455.
  • The philology expert and other arcane art priesthood. This is where you get things like “you can’t use words of different origins together.” I believe they make Prozac for that, but these people never take them, preferring to share their neurosis. Seriously, unless you’re writing over-precious poetry most of their concerns are moot. But they’ll still pound you with them. Under this fall the historical expert who isn’t. And the person who doesn’t read your genre but who nonetheless Knows Better. “This is not science fiction. In proper science fiction, like Star Trek….”
  • The questioner. This is particularly bad for sf/f. I fell for it once and almost killed a book. (DST.) This is the person who thinks you should have an explanation for every act of magic or instance of non-existent (and sometimes existent) technology. “But how does anti-grav work? When was it invented? You must tell us.”
  • The moralist. This critter confuses your characters with you and tries to tell you you’re all wrong. For instance, a story in which a man was so neurotic/confused, he lets a woman be dragged off in front of him got me accused of “supine cowardice” by one of these critters. (He also inferred my character was gay, which he wasn’t, but that’s beyond the point. Oh, and that was wrong, wrong, wrong too, and how dare I.) These people often belong to the traditional religions and sometimes to new credos. I’ve gotten blasted for using “ecologically unsound” materials in a novel. (No, seriously. Hey, the only trees killed are to print the novel, and that’s if it’s not an ebook.) I’ve gotten yelled at for having characters in high heels. (Females, even.)


This is not an exhaustive list, just a place for me to remember some of them. Right now, we’ll take on Pov violations, because it ties in to last week.


First, yes, there are POV violations, Virginia. I sometimes catch myself committing them, and they’re very hard to catch. Sometimes only a reader in ten sees them. That said, readers who are looking for them see a lot of them that aren’t there.

The pov violations that exist are usually glaring. I slip into them when I’ve been reading Romance, which does not consider them violations and uses them everywhere.

So, for instance,

“She felt her heart melt as he looked at her with those longing eyes. He was thinking about how great she’d look making him a sammich.”

That’s a pov violation because you jumped between heads. You’re either in her head or his.

In romance, though, that’s how you write. You don’t even wait for the paragraph break to switch. In SF/F… don’t do that.

At least don’t do that if you’re sending to traditional publishers and/or if it hurts the narration. How can it hurt the narration? It’s hard to build tension when you don’t stay still. Say you’re the guy driving down the street, who hits a girl, but you’re also the girl who is fine, and the dog turning the corner who wonders if he can get pets, and…


Second, these things aren’t pov violations, but I’ve had their like flagged as such:

She looked cold. He wondered if he should give her his coat.

He was sweating. The postman wondered if it was from heat or worry.


A lot of people think that if you have something from another pov in the middle, it’s a pov violation. Hint: it’s only a pov violation if it’s something the head you’re in couldn’t have known. If someone is sweating, you can see it. Also, if someone looks cold.


In the first instance, if you have “she was cold” and he’s not touching her, then that IS a pov violation and you can fix it to something like “she looked”.


Third, don’t be afraid of a little violation in the right place. Yes these are violations, but they’re not egregious, and not committing them will make your story heavy as concrete just to establish basics.

So, take a third person close in, like this:

A rendez-vous With Death

The wind bit Manfred Freiherr von Richthofen’s exposed face, whipped his white silk scarf into a frenzy.

He didn’t notice.

Hunched forward, Manfred, the Red Baron, held the control stick of his airplane in his right hand, moved his square-tipped fingers in a well-practiced way, simultaneously controlling the flight of his plane and firing both of his front-mounted machine guns at the fleeing enemy plane.

Far beneath Manfred’s plane, a persistent fog obscured the trenches and the men in them to an altitude of three miles.

Manfred had done his time in the trenches and he would prefer death in the cold, clean air above the clouds to life in the damp mustiness, the sluggish boredom, of the trench.

Despite the cold and the wind that, intensified by the speed of his flight, made the red-painted plywood frame of his plane crackle and groan, Manfred felt warm.


His heart beat fast and his pumping blood made his pale-skinned face glow.

His right hand squeezed the buttons on the control stick, his thumb pressed the button that fired both machine guns at once.

I’m clearly in his head, so how can I describe his hands and his skin color. SURELY he’s not thinking of that. Well, no. But he IS that, and if you don’t describe that, there’s not enough for the readers to latch onto. And having him look at himself on the fuselage or something will remind you it’s a narrative FAR more than those discrete POV violations.

Sometimes you must make the best of what you can and break the rules a little, in order to speed things along. If you look at published things, you’ll find a ton of these. Kris Rusch taught me early on “it’s better to violate the pov and move on, than to have an obvious contrivance to tell us what your character looks like, in a scene that is there ONLY for that purpose.” As in most writing things, she was right.


Another acceptable violations is camera pov in the beginning. I’ve never seen this in a first person, but PTerry often uses it in his beginnings. You set someone in a time, place, universe, and then you drop into your character’s head. I can’t remember a book where I’ve done this, though I’m sure I have, so I’ll just improvise something:


If you’ve never been to planet Earth, you haven’t missed much. It’s a ball of mud and muck floating in space, just far enough from Sol to catch a bad case of life. On a continent in that world, in a country called United States, in a small town called Manitou Springs, perched on the edge of a great big rocky ridge, Bob lay asleep and dreaming.

He was dreaming of elephants. He moved beneath the covers, trying to find the right way to climb the dream elephant, his mind walking the savannah….. etc.


Okay, got it? Questions?


  1. You’ve mentioned Romance–no break needed to change POV. How about the other genres? Do you need a scene break, or a chapter break. Is a paragraph ever enough and in which genres?

    1. All the other genres you need AT LEAST a paragraph break. Science fiction and fantasy you need a section or a chapter break. BUT remember these are traditional rules. A lot of the indie bestsellers don’t do this.

  2. When I do a beta read I always list the typos, spelling errors, grammar issues and such, but I also always try to give my impression as a reader of the flow and most importantly did the story grab me, and if not why not.
    Speaking of beta readings, did one a while back on a novel, think it was called Fifth Einstein or something like that. Only negative I mentioned was that I thought it started a bit slowly. Still think with a bit of spiffing up the intro it was a very publishable book. I hope the author puts it out there for the real test, ie will folks pay.

    1. He’s fixed the beginning. He’d changed it, see, at the last minute. When he read it at LC, he realized the “new” intro didn’t work.
      Getting him to put it up, OTOH. I might need a Baen strike team to pry it from his hands so I can upload it.

      1. It really was a good read. He has nothing to be shy about.
        Somehow I cannot believe that you don’t have some means to persuade him to put it up. I’d say use your feminine wiles, but that would be sexxxxisss.

        1. I’d say threaten to steal it and put it up herself. With some horrendous cover art (maybe a full-length photo of Dennis Rodman). And her own, extremely ludicrous (written for this express purpose, mind you) blurbs, and with a completely bogus title. Outrageous enough to scare him into doing it himself.


  3. I’m reading one now in which the POV is a little unsettling. The main character is first person but he tells the other characters stories form third omniscient. It’s a little confusing. I’m not sure I could have put my finger on it, but for these recent discussions.

  4. Yup. I’ve learned from my years in a writing group that there’s times you have to listen, and times you have to ignore. The key is knowing you do and when you don’t.

  5. The rule at my writing group comes from the Band, “You take what you need and you leave the rest.” It is not uncommon to go through an entire workshop for the nugget that shows up toward the end. Sometimes we need to talk to each other about it, before we coalesce on a common position. We don’t have many of those type you list in our workshop. Probably because we’re all working hard to better ourselves, and are supportive of each other.

  6. Speaking of critique groups, does anybody want to start one? I’ll admit to selfish motivations here; IE I get more done when I have a deadline and I could use someone to critique my work that would actually offer comments. I’m thinking we could maybe use a free forum site to post comments about each others works to, but I’m open to suggestions.

    At any rate… Any takers?

    1. Possibly. I used to be quite active on a couple of “peer” critique sites before getting fed up with the nonsense. (Sorry, but “i like it lol keep writing!!!!! lol” is NOT a valid critique.) Getting feedback from actual grown-ups who are familiar with science fiction and fantasy (and don’t expect either to be about a ‘vampire-werewolf-rutabaga love triangle’) would be great.

      1. Thanks a bunch. Now I have an overwhelming urge to write a vampire-werewolf-rutabega love triangle. (The werewolf loves the rutabega for not judging him for chasing cars. The vampire loves the rutabega for not rolling its eyes or pretending to have a seizure when he tells the “no shit, there I was at the 12th crusade..or was it the 11th?” stories for the fiftieth time.) I will write it in first person omniscient, without punctuation because that just holds back my creative forces. And I will make sure EVERYONE knows it is your fault. 😀

        1. Isn’t that where the phrase “you can’t squeeze blood from a rutabaga” comes from? The vampire sucked, the werewolf bit, and the poor little rutabaga just lay there, uprooted…

    2. If I weren’t so busy at my current group, while expecting the return of my edited first book, and 26k into its sequel, I’d be happy to join. But I’ll take a pass now, and hope to join at some later date when the youn know what is not hitting the fan.

  7. Same trouble here – since two of my best and most reliable alpha-readers are no longer with us. (One was my Dad, the other my business partner in the Tiny Publishing Bidness.) I had a friend when I worked at the local classical music station who also was a wonderful alpha reader – she got fully engaged with my scribbles, she loved my characters on that particular project – and her feedback was worth its weight in gold. I didn’t always do what she suggested, but her suggestions gave me the most brilliant ideas EVAH!
    I recruited some alpha readers on the Ace of Spades Sunday book thread, by promising a print copy of the finished book, Lone Star Sons to the volunteers. Two of the six had really, really, good feedback and suggestions – so that might be an option for Authors In Search of Valid Feedback.

      1. I have been posting chapters to my DA. Although the main project I was doing that with got stalled while I work on my current project. Those chapters are hidden away on my DA-Stash. If nothing else, it serves as an emergency offsite backup.

      2. I’m posting chapters on my blog. No comments yet, good or bad, but I’m also up to my elbows in caimans at the moment. (Small alligators, easier to fend off one-at-a-time, not so great when they rush you all at once.)

  8. I freely admit that I don’t have the background others here might.
    But I don’t see the POV violation in the last two examples. They look like standard third-person omniscient to me. There’s a bit of fiddling with the zoom/focus, but as long as the disembodied narrator is a passive observer, I don’t see the problem.

    (Of course, I also have trouble resisting the urge to play with the fourth wall. This might be part and parcel of that.)

  9. I took the opening of my novel to a local writer’s group. Received some useful comments. Some less so. In one scene a character entered and tossed his hat onto the table. This drew an indignant “He had a hat?”

  10. Kris Rusch taught me early on “it’s better to violate the pov and move on, than to have an obvious contrivance to tell us what your character looks like, in a scene that is there ONLY for that purpose.”

    I once had an early horror story (“The Wreck of the Ivory Bounty”) critiqued by Lisanne Norman. And she was an advocate of the old “Have the character look in a mirror to describe themselves” bit, which I know is frowned upon these days. That one piece of advice I didn’t take.

    Every once in a while I wondered if I should have sent that one in to Talebones.

  11. In one critique group, I encountered about a dozen people who were both ‘arcane art priests’ AND ‘questioners.’ They told me I was ‘doing it wrong’ because one of my characters DIDN’T act exactly like Shatner-as-Kirk (these were people who only had the vaguest notion of what even Star Trek and Star Wars are, and they definitely didn’t ever READ science fiction), and they wanted me to stop the flow of the story every time a bit of fictional tech or whatever got mentioned in order to explain what it was, what it did, who invented it, and why. This triggered my first ever “I don’t write for tourists” rant. 🙂 No one expects a contemporary novel to stop dead so the author can explain the internal combustion the first time the protagonist gets in a car. (Okay, maybe a LITTLE bit about it if the car has one of those weird wankel engines, and if it matters to the story.) But it’s NOT all right to mention in passing that the people in a sci-fi setting grow their food aeroponically and move on because it’s basically just set dressing, not something vital to plot or characterization. Nope. Gotta spend AT LEAST three paragraphs explaining aeroponics, including the roots of the word, but do it without infodumping or using ‘big words.’

  12. As far as I’m concerned, the editor who wants to buy the piece can critique it. Everyone else can go to hell.

    Cranky? Yes.

    But as far as I’m concerned, unless you are giving me money, I’m not all that worried about your opinion. Money gets my attention. Boy does it ever!

    Which doesn’t mean I won’t listen. I do. I just don’t worry about what anyone says, unless they are a professional that I trust.

    I’ve been told by people who’ve looked at my stuff that:

    A) It won’t sell, you’ll need to rewrite it (it had already sold).
    B) No one will like this character (sold four short stories about her)
    C) I don’t like your setting (so what – I don’t like yours either)
    D) This is unrealistic (well duh – it’s Fantasy)

    Curiously all the stuff that I’ve shown people, gets criticized. Since I never who anything to anyone until after I sell it…

    No, I’m not a big name. Never will be. But I enjoy what I do, and I’m not going to let anyone destroy that enjoyment.

    And I came at this from working in International Sales. You grow a thick skin quickly when trying to sell into Fortune 500 companies. Like in six months, max. Any longer than that, and you’ll loose your mind.

    Working in sales made me arrogant, conceited, pushy, arrogant, stubborn, bullish, arrogant, tough, direct, and did I mention arrogant?


  13. In my case, when the person asks about how antigrav works and when it was invented, I’d say “it isn’t necessary to the story, but…” a few clicks on my tablet later… check your email.

    But then, I tend to do a lot of worldbuilding in my story notes. How much of it gets into the story, depends on the story, but it helps me keep things consistent and means I can have people working on things on board a ship without having to ‘realign the main deflector dish’ or some such… and can also have doing something like that have consequences… (to continue with the trekkish example… did you realign the main deflector dish to use it as a weapon? then you can’t go to warp for another 6-8 hours because it can’t currently function as a deflector dish…)

    1. Oh, I have double d-gook for when needed, too — but these people want the explanation in the story. One of those — someone asked me why Athena gets sick with artificial grav. I said “inner ear issues from extraordinarily sensitive inner ear — i.e. enhanced sense of direction. It’s linked to balance and sense of direction.” “Well, then you should explain in the story how the inner ear is linked to balance and sense of direction.” “Uh, or you could look on the net!”

        1. Having some experience with a fairly sensitive inner ear (not hypersensitive, by any means), yet a youth spent on trampolines, I can tell you that the problem would come when your eyes tell you that you are stationary, yet your ears tell you something else. When you’re in active motion and you can see it, it’s a different dynamic.

            1. Hmmm.. I never made that connection. I wouldn’t trade my sense of direction for the ability to ride carnival rides.

                1. What’s fun is when you flip head over heels a couple of times, come to rest in a heap (my knees were touching the ground next to my shoulders – don’t worry, I was flexible as a rope at the time), and have no idea which way is up until your inner ear settles down.

  14. There’s a Hemingway story called The Killers. They made it into a noir movie. In it the hero (POV character) is tied up in the back room of a diner. Then some action takes place in the front room. When I read this years back, I exulted, “ah hah! Hemingway violated POV!” Then I read further and Nick relates that the cook had told him what happened. Curses, foiled again. Many POV violations can be explained away as the narrator delivering hearsay evidence of the events supposedly outside his POV.

    I suppose the lesson I should take from this is that if the story is right and the POV is wrong, the latter can fixed more easily than the former.

Comments are closed.