What was that about Jack-of-all-trades…? Well, of course in these rather indifferent times, authors mostly end up holding down a job, writing, and doing a fair amount of the publicity and promo too. Well, let’s be straight here, as often as not, doing ALL of it, that does not include selling to a tiny handful of distributors and large retailers. The leg-work, the part that authors being the loud, extroverted, heart-and-soul of the party sort people they aren’t, are just your natural best and most effective choice for. Only they have as far as publishing is concerned one huge positive factor: They’re free. And as far as authors are concerned they have one even bigger factor: they really are motivated. They might lack the skills, tools, money and personality for it, but by heaven the silly beggars do try their guts out.
Hence author blogs and interviews and blog tours and facebook and twa… twitter. Some of which succeeds, and may pay the author a handsome 8% of that book sale while the generous distributors and publishers who contribute nothing to this, trouser the other 62% — which they would have had none of without the author’s extra unpaid work. To give credit where it is due, Amazon if you’ve promoted it on your site with a link will pay you a percentage of that sale. Perhaps instead of moaning about how Amazon is cutting their throats, publishers, and maybe even the distributor who would profit from that extra (that they would have 100%… of zero without that promotion by the author) could chip in a few percent to send those sales to their chosen retailer – who would have to match Amazon in paying the author. The publishers and distributors would then be in a much better negotiating position, would have lost not one red cent — and made quite a lot they wouldn’t have… and authors would have the money to work on promoting their work instead of trying do it in the gaps between the day job, and writing, without being able to afford the tools or help they need. Oh, wait. That would be sensible, might work, but would involve paying authors, who do a makeshift job of the same thing… for nothing. So they’d lose on the makeshift job and the cross-subsidizing of publishing and distribution by authors second jobs and working spouses. Can’t have that!
So: As a result more authors go indy and leave them 100% of nothing. Which ends up with you being Houghton Mifflin… In the meanwhile authors – including yours truly, the monkey here (the organ grinder is away, grinding organs) dancing and saying ‘lookit my shiny book, when you click on the pretty picture I get some money.
or this one which I admit is largely an in-joke for writers.
And while this works it also means you will have to deal with what I wanted to write about today: the troll.
You will get them. We had a minor one here the other day, although they generally prefer soft targets. At best you will end up with a flame war and everybody wasting lots of electrons and time on some ass who has more money (because to the working author, time is money) and time (because trolls seem to have no lives other than wondering from site-to-site, seeking grievance and raising their pet agenda). At worst these scum can cost you your health, career, and if you let them get under your skin enough, your life. They’re like rats in the working farm. There is no good rat on a farm, and there is no good troll. Farms will always suffer rats, and web-pages and blogs will always suffer trolls. Allow them zero tolerance, and get rid of them in any way possible.
To get rid of them you have to understand them. Firstly, they have no interest in debate. They get a charge out of being noticed and making their agenda noticed. So no matter how reasonable you try to be, or try to steer the matter back to say… books, they will want to rant about abortion. If you kowtow to their point of view they may let you be a camp-follower for a while and enjoy picking on someone else. Or they’ll just kick the shit out of you because they enjoy it. And sooner or later, when they run out of victims, they’ll take you too. They love the power and they love the bullying. These are the people at the heart of things like racefail (which attacked a fair number of authors who are, trust me on this, desperately eager to try and give racial minorities far more than their fair shake.) It’s been one of those own-goal ‘victories’ which made the architects feel powerful, made authors wary… and made books far _less_ likely to change perceptions. I’m sorry, the value of fiction as a vehicle for social change lies in it being plausible. Which, duh, means all villains are not just 40 year old white heterosexual males.
The point here is there is no such thing as a good troll. I had one of the so PC that she gleams new literary sf/fantasy dahlings claim a particularly noxious troll ‘raised awareness’ of her racial-gender-orientation issues ‘which we ought to be talking about’. Said individual was posting pirate copies of authors books and then twittering to encourage her camp-followers to and their friends to go and badmouth them. And in their defense the dahling claimed that sometimes a vinegar bomb was necessary to get people to notice. Well… I had noticed that every time this crops up… it’s a variant of ‘She’s a son-of-a-bitch, but she’s our son-of-a-bitch.’ Maybe someone should have a long hard look at how well that worked out for America, before applying it to their pet cause or outlook. In the end you might get noticed. You might also be permanently stuck with the reputation of people with your problem being complete septic a$$holes, to be noticed but outside of lip-service to acceptance (which is worth nothing) to be avoided like a rabid drunk with the clap. Personally, I would rather do the hard yards and have people (like myself) with varying degrees of dyslexia respected for their efforts and achievement, than have people afraid to hurt my feelings in case we throw a snit and get their books not to sell and achieve hatemail for them (wow. Achievement!). It’s a problem. I can work around it.
Look, there is no such thing as not being able to get heard. Not now, not with the Internet. You might not get people to listen, and maybe they just don’t have any interest in being aware of your particular problem, real or imagined (and to you that can be real. Ask all my imaginary friends). It’s no excuse. And using your ‘problem’ to oppress others, just makes you (instead of them) an oppressor. A bully. One of the reasons the troll problem has proliferated so well, is that we’ve labored under the new apartheid system, otherwise known as ‘Political correctness’ – which means if you can claim ‘victim status’ (in the old apartheid system that would have been skin color) or ‘historical victim status’ (like my great great great great great grandmother was a victim, so all of us have been, no matter what happened since) for what the supporters consider good reason (just as the supporters of apartheid considered theirs ‘good reason’ – perceptions change, thank goodness) the designated ‘victim’ (or multiple great grand child of) can claim to deserve (just as in apartheid) a set of conditions not granted to others who don’t enjoy their status. So just as black South Africans could not criticize white ones… but white ones could badmouth black ones and kick them off seats on the bus, and be backed up by a thuggish police, non-victims can’t criticize ‘victims’ and ‘victims’ can say what they please and if non-victims dare sit at the wrong end of the bus, the PC-police will hound them.
If we’re all just humans… well I expect you to behave as well the next man, woman, transgender or small hippopotamus passing for human. And I believe, slowly, the worm is turning. Another commentator replying to the thread the PC-dahling had just defended the troll on… said that minorities and victims were much worse jumped on for bullying than others. Well, yes. When you’ve got away with it for years the pendulum will swing back harder. But the crucial point is that patience is slowly running out. They’re getting jumped on for bullying, which even 5 years back would not have happened, and 10 years would have had the jumper attacked. The Zeitgeist out there is changing and PC-crew don’t realize they’ve fouled their own nest so badly as lose much of the sympathy natural in humans for underdogs. When you’re allowed license that others are not, it’s hard for them to believe that you are the underdog. When you’re a nice guy and a reasonable individual that I can differ with who behaves as well as anyone else… then it’s really easy to sympathize. “Oh. You’re Chinese and gay… but I like you, find you pleasant, easy to talk to, sensible… a person just like me who happens to have a different skin color, cultural background and orientation. You have had a bad press!” That’s winning the war against irrational discrimination. Beating up on people until they fear you… is not.
Which brings us back to being an author, and having to cope with blogging and trolls. My advice – which you’re welcome to take or leave: if anyone even starts this, insist on real names, no anon or pseudonyms permitted. Delete abusive or threatening stuff. And if you have the skill (because they’ll call all their camp-followers to come and see the abuse) make an idiot of them. Don’t play to them – play to the peanut gallery. Leave the abuse and foulmouthed stuff to them, but if you can make the readers laugh… they’ve lost.
So any other suggestions on dealing with that lower life form crawling the internet, Trollus trollus var parasiticuscumbagus?




13 responses to “The troll-bridge too far”
I’m afraid I’m in the “kick them out” school of thought. Trolls are the same as people who walk into the neighborhood bar and pick fights. Since you can’t actually give them a bloody nose (or worse), just kick them out. Maybe warn them first but if they keep it up, kick them out. Your regulars will thank you.
Generally, me too. I don’t care whether they’re my SOB or someone else’s. They can go elsewhere.
[…] be prominently featured in book and movie and tv. Part of it is, as Dave Freer talks about today (second half of his post at Mad Genius Club) that trolls can be very vocal; that some minorities back the trolls and that writers are socially […]
Larry Correia occasionally fisks trolls who appear on his blog. He has no problem if you disagree with him, so long as you have solid facts, good sources, and don’t go into name calling or excessive vulgarity. But show up with a half-baked argument and bad data and the gloves come off. He doesn’t always take the time to do it, but when he does it’s a great example of the art.
The ban hammer also works well, especially if you start getting the kind of troll that attracts trouble (“incitement to violence” is a problem on one blog that I follow).
I certainly don’t have a problem if you disagree with me (actually if anyone agreed with everything I said, I would worry about them). I’ve a liking for debate, and can and have changed my mind on the basis of that. I enjoy the interaction with other intelligent folk even if I don’t agree (I am one of those who will argue a point for the fun of it -without descending into abuse, and to see what develops. If you want my respect (someone has to) you’ll show you can also accept you’re wrong sometimes, and that you can agree to differ politely). I guess I should have defined troll. A troll, to me, is an individual who does not debate, has a pre-defined agenda which they will attempt to tack onto whatever thread. You’re discussing needlework? Needlework discriminates against Thai lesbians! You’re talking about godzilla? Godzilla discussion is a way to denigrate Thai lesbians! You’re arguing about US school education curricula? Thai lesbians are left out, and you’re a sexist pig for not mentioning them. Any attempt to restrict to topic is treated as assault and it all rabidly turns to abuse, ad hominem attacks and lots of what you term vulgarity :-). I was a NCO, worked on commercial fishing boats and in fish processing factories. They’re always terribly amateur!
Senator Goldwater once said, “If you find that you agree with 70% of what I have to say, then you should probably vote for me. But if you find that you agree with 100% of what I have to say, you should definitely seek psychiatric help.”
In the old days of usenet news a christian home education group I was on had a troll that was trolling for the entertainment of it, pretending to be a white supremacist. No one rose to the bait, everyone tried to save his soul with love until, finally, the fellow announced that we were just all so very *nice* that he couldn’t do it anymore.
We had another “troll” that was in earnest. (From australia, actually.) The whole group died. We couldn’t make him leave and he wouldn’t let anyone else have a conversation without another rant. Ignoring him didn’t work because he wouldn’t go away.
I sort of like the original definition of “troll” which was more like the first guy. It was someone who stuck a stick in an anthill just for the fun of it. The person who started a fight for the fun of fighting. The other fellow was a vandal. Earnest and bent on destruction for the betterment of the world.
My inclination is to favor allowing all to speak, no matter their agenda, but in truth it doesn’t really work. There are too many who not only want to be heard, but feel that they are *so* right that others must be made to listen and those who disagree must be shouted down.
(As for pseudonymns… I’m rather fond of them. Mine doesn’t change and I value Synova’s reputation.)
If you started to troll, Synova, I would tell you to drop the pseudonym or be banned. A decent poster who wants to remain anon, I have no problem with. WordPress is a lot more flexible than older systems, I can if need be stop your IP address posting, let alone your pseudonym. I certainly don’t mind debate, and disagreement. I do have a problem with abuse, bullying or ad hominem attacks. On the other hand, I’d guess on the track record of your posts your personal chances of being banned approach zero :-).
Personally I enjoy stomping the suckers when i have the time and energy.
What I would like to see is a system to allow readers to killfile trolls so they and they only do not see them. Perhaps a troll rating as well that can be used to block them at the reader’s discression. This would both allow the readers to customize the blogs that they read to their needs and would reduce the workload on the blogger.
Your house, your rules. My house, my rules. I’ve shown someone the door for behaving badly, after they didn’t take well to me pulling them aside to another room and saying, “We don’t do that here.” I don’t deal well when guests abuse other guests. That’s not being a good host. Not, at least, in the way I was brought up. If you won’t behave in a civil manner in my house, you can be as uncivil as you like outside of my house. I have no problem whatsoever with hosts of websites deciding what their rules are. Usually, a word to the wise suffices. But sometimes, it doesn’t.
I grew up as the bullied geek. Until I realized that I didn’t have to tutor the kids who mistreated me … and the bullying disappeared virtually overnight. (It was a very small school, with a decidedly finite supply of geeks …) I see trolls the same way. They attempt to bully me, and I simply withhold the thing they need from me — which in the case of trolls is generally attention and acknowledgment.
There was a time when I frequented a couple of political blogs (using a different pseudonym than this one, but one they recognized because I used it there every day), before I came to the realization that the whole cultute of political blogging is largely a waste of time and resources. There was a staffer on one of them who disagreed with me about almost everything, but she and I regularly had long, reasonable, thoughtful and thought-provoking discussions. There was a different staffer on the same site who disagreed with me about almost everything, and became irrational and emotional (and, more often than not, aggressively victim-y) when I disgreed with her. I took to addressing all of my comments to the former, explaining why I felt the latter was off the mark, while never acknowledging her directly … petty of me, but it was effective.
On the last bit… I’ve done that.
And a long time ago I had a political blog, not under my name…. it turned into a creeping disaster.